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Subject: narrative sculpts vs armor kits rss

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Gabbi Occhialini
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I keep seeing posts about how armor kits will not be in the new expansions but when I checked I saw something called narrative sculpts. Wouldn't those have the armor that are depicted in the gear cards? I guess I don't understand the difference. How are they different?
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Richard Sampson
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Armor kits are completely interchangeable so you can mix and match components (arms of one armor with a helmet of another for instance). This allows a WYSIWYG experience where you can make figures that match your exact character load-out. However, the interchangeability leads to kind of boring looking models, and to get much out of the WYSIWYG aspect, you have to do a lot of tedious alterations so that the pieces are not permanently glued together.

This is where the narrative sculpts come in. They are much more dynamic posed figures with no interchangeability. These means that models are a lot more interesting to look at and are closer to the pin-up/promo material. However, it also means that they simply are what they are with no ability to mix across models.
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Fito R
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Armor kits are also quite a bit more expensive to produce than a simple narrative sculpt, and take a lot more sprue space. I'm guessing this is why the Gambler's Chest is so jam packed with narrative sculpts, probably can fit like four or five of them in the same space that a single armor kit would occupy.
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This picture is pretty helpful in illustrating the difference:



The models on the left are Narrative Sculpts. The models on the right are the "Unarmored" Armor Kit, posed to (sorta) match the narrative sculpts.

The Narrative Sculpts have a LOT of advantages:
1. look better,
2. are easier to produce,
3. are consistent with the original KD resins,

No, you can't always have the exact mix and match of equipment, but equipment is supposed to be a constant flow in and out, so it shouldn't be a big deal.
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lee miller
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I magnetized all my armor sets but I'm a miniature painter as well. It is neat have WYSIWYG, But having these narrative sculptures is going to shine in your collection. Plus, you can swap them in and out at certain points in the story. Murder for example. I just played a campaign and had a serial killer on the loose with berserker, bitter frenzy, rageholic and then I got clinging mists, took her off to start a new settlement then drew marrow hunger 2 years in. Having the skull eater as the model to play in this scenario would have (will be) amazing.
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Kain
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After having Kingdom Death for I think a year now with all the expansions. With magnetized everything.

What a waste of time. The whole lot. (armor kits/magnetizing)

Armor Kits was originally a really appealing aspect of the game for me, now it's a massive waste of time. I loved every weapon realized and being able to replicate my idea designs.

But the novelty of switching to the miniatures with sword, bigger sword, fancy sword, a knife or a spear, fancy spear and a bow, etc etc etc... Does wear off pretty quickly. Heck. I played with people that were very comfortable just picking their preferred gender and look and sticking with it almost regardless of weapons because all the miniature did was reference their avatar, not their abilities or entire weapon load out.

I know many would disagree, but I'm extremely happy they're swapping to a more dynamic and unique kits.

Adam said armor kits aren't forgotten, but if he plans to roll those out in 5 years, they might as well be.
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Amy (Other Amy)
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I thought about going the magnetizing route, then I did a sanity check and backed away slowly. I welcome the narrative sculpts.
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Paul Johnson
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I'll tell you what my plan is with regards to armor kits -- I'll start by painting up the starting survivors, and then at the end of each session I'll have the group nominate one survivor to get a new model. We'll pick out a survivor who has done something notable recently and does not have a model that accurately represents them, and then between sessions I'll build a 1:1 matching model for that survivor and paint it up. This will continue until I either run out of armor kit parts to do it with or we stop caring about it.
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Yup, planning on doing a similar thing, though one survivor a session seems a bit too much. Whenever a survivor does something that would make them a legend within the settlement, plus they have a cool gear load-out would seem like a good time to immortalize them.
 
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amyotheramy wrote:
I thought about going the magnetizing route, then I did a sanity check and backed away slowly. I welcome the narrative sculpts.


I was immediately like... that sounds cool... I mean if someone else did it for free. Just painting takes a ton of time, I am not independently wealthy or retired so magnetizing would be like shooting my social life in the head.
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Kain
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Jetfire wrote:
amyotheramy wrote:
I thought about going the magnetizing route, then I did a sanity check and backed away slowly. I welcome the narrative sculpts.


I was immediately like... that sounds cool... I mean if someone else did it for free. Just painting takes a ton of time, I am not independently wealthy or retired so magnetizing would be like shooting my social life in the head.

I wouldn't say that people's hobby is immediately indicative of their lifestyle. It just takes... a long time to do if you have a busy life. I would say magnetizing took about as a long as cutting and glueing stuff together.
 
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Dark63 wrote:
Jetfire wrote:
amyotheramy wrote:
I thought about going the magnetizing route, then I did a sanity check and backed away slowly. I welcome the narrative sculpts.


I was immediately like... that sounds cool... I mean if someone else did it for free. Just painting takes a ton of time, I am not independently wealthy or retired so magnetizing would be like shooting my social life in the head.

I wouldn't say that people's hobby is immediately indicative of their lifestyle. It just takes... a long time to do if you have a busy life. I would say magnetizing took about as a long as cutting and glueing stuff together.


After a year in I still have stuff from the Core Armor Kits that haven't been put together. I don't magnetize, I just pull out the sprues and give them a look-see to find which bits I want to make into a new character.

Most recently I did something that many here would probably find sacreligious - I chopped off large bits of a King Spear, shaved down a spare Kingsman head and then stuck the two together to make a decoration for a Gaxe-wielding survivor to be glaring at.

The armor kits can be clunky, and you do need to experiment a little, but with some time, patience, and imagination you are most certainly able to create very unique models that have that same narrative sculpt feeling on them.
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Crimsonsun God
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Dark63 wrote:
Jetfire wrote:
amyotheramy wrote:
I thought about going the magnetizing route, then I did a sanity check and backed away slowly. I welcome the narrative sculpts.


I was immediately like... that sounds cool... I mean if someone else did it for free. Just painting takes a ton of time, I am not independently wealthy or retired so magnetizing would be like shooting my social life in the head.

I wouldn't say that people's hobby is immediately indicative of their lifestyle. It just takes... a long time to do if you have a busy life. I would say magnetizing took about as a long as cutting and glueing stuff together.


It's more that I'd hate the process, I'm not the keenest painter out there, though I generally quite enjoy the modelling side of things as long as its not overly repetitive which lies the issue with magnetising everything. I wouldn't enjoy the process so it wouldn't get done and the minis would just sit there. Luckily I've been playing Miniatures games for 25 years+ so I know my limitations and compared to the work I've done with Tabletop Armies the entire range of Kingdom death built to painted is pretty tame.

My plan for the Armour kits is too take snap shots in time and to build go to options but with the content coming in the Gamblers chest and the Narrative sculpts I feel its going to be less important to have them, though if given the choice I'd also go with the Armour Kit option as it gives more options and you only have to create what you need so its not tons of work if you don't want it to be.
 
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Dark63 wrote:
Armor Kits was originally a really appealing aspect of the game for me, now it's a massive waste of time.

I know many would disagree, but I'm extremely happy they're swapping to a more dynamic and unique kits.

Adam said armor kits aren't forgotten, but if he plans to roll those out in 5 years, they might as well be.


I think Armor Kits were a noble experiment, that just didn't pan out the way that Adam had thought they would. Masks are in the same category.

KD 2.0 will likely replace the current Armor Kits for representative Narrative Sculpts a la Gambler's Chest.
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Steve Trewartha
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Just looking at the gallery of the armour kit painting contest really highlights some of the incredible things you can do with them and with multiple bits, options and poses... Just because it seems a decent portion of people are from board game backgrounds and want little or no assembly, doesn't mean the modelling and hobby side of the fans don't love the armour kits. In fact in the update when Adam mentioned the gallery he even admitted that he had underestimated how people were using them. No one is posting their stuff anywhere unfortunately.
 
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sam newman

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I think the main reasons Poots dropped the armor kits are as follows.

Expense
armor kits require large sprues more pieces and for that reason more cost in production.

Time
The armor kits require a lot more planning and development than a static miniature.

Looks

The armor kits simply dont fit the dramatic style of KDM in terms of pose. Whilst good results can be achieved they simply arent up there in terms of narrative sculpts.
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strewart wrote:
Just because it seems a decent portion of people are from board game backgrounds and want little or no assembly, doesn't mean the modelling and hobby side of the fans don't love the armour kits.


I have a lot of modelling & hobby experience. The armor kits just don't have the sort of dynamic anatomy that is possible with the narrative sculpts. The armor kits tend to produce very static models that lack motion or emotion - it's largely people standing around. While things can be done with the armor kits, it's a lot of work to repose the models, producing a less durable playing piece.

Kingdom Death has a visual style that does not carry over to the armor kits nearly as well as it does via narrative sculpt. As a patron of the arts, I strongly prefer the visual look of the narratives. My preference is based on aesthetics, not modeling or hobby, and I think it's a gross mischaracterization to assume any people who want narratives are doing so because they "want little or no assembly". From what I see, it's about getting a better-looking OOTB model than what is possible with the armor kits.
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GrauGeist wrote:
strewart wrote:
Just because it seems a decent portion of people are from board game backgrounds and want little or no assembly, doesn't mean the modelling and hobby side of the fans don't love the armour kits.


I have a lot of modelling & hobby experience. The armor kits just don't have the sort of dynamic anatomy that is possible with the narrative sculpts. The armor kits tend to produce very static models that lack motion or emotion - it's largely people standing around. While things can be done with the armor kits, it's a lot of work to repose the models, producing a less durable playing piece.

Kingdom Death has a visual style that does not carry over to the armor kits nearly as well as it does via narrative sculpt. As a patron of the arts, I strongly prefer the visual look of the narratives. My preference is based on aesthetics, not modeling or hobby, and I think it's a gross mischaracterization to assume any people who want narratives are doing so because they "want little or no assembly". From what I see, it's about getting a better-looking OOTB model than what is possible with the armor kits.


There are some incredibly nice narrative sculpts, but many of them shown during the KS looked like nothing that couldn't be easily done with armour kits even with no modelling at all. I just think that if the ambition of the kits was scaled back a tiny bit (forearms should not be in two pieces for example) it would be much better. Or even if the narrative sculpts came with a few different gear options. Part of the selling point of KD originally was that every piece of gear you could be equipped with was represented on the sprues somewhere. It will be quite a shame if that is lost.
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Fito R
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gorkel wrote:

Time
The armor kits require a lot more planning and development than a static miniature.


I hadn't even thought about this, but in hindsight it's probably the number one reason. All future armor kits would need to be compatible with the old armor kits, and developing all that probably takes a lot of time. Time better spent developing the content itself, I'd say.
 
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Joou wrote:
gorkel wrote:
Time
The armor kits require a lot more planning and development than a static miniature.


I hadn't even thought about this, but in hindsight it's probably the number one reason. All future armor kits would need to be compatible with the old armor kits, and developing all that probably takes a lot of time. Time better spent developing the content itself, I'd say.


That's not true at all. A narrative sculpture actually requires *more* work than an armor kit. Armor kits follow a pre-defined physical template, so it's just a question of mapping the new armor pieces onto that template.

A narrative sculpture then takes those bits and places them onto a figure, which needs to be designed and posed and tweaked. The creation of the narrative armature is additional work.

A good example would be the Death Armor - there is a lot of twist in each narrative model that needs to be sculpted compared to the static, standing armor kit. The scythe and axe both convey a lot of dynamic weight that the model is winding up.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...
 
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strewart wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
I have a lot of modelling & hobby experience. The armor kits just don't have the sort of dynamic anatomy that is possible with the narrative sculpts. The armor kits tend to produce very static models that lack motion or emotion - it's largely people standing around. While things can be done with the armor kits, it's a lot of work to repose the models, producing a less durable playing piece.

Kingdom Death has a visual style that does not carry over to the armor kits nearly as well as it does via narrative sculpt. As a patron of the arts, I strongly prefer the visual look of the narratives. My preference is based on aesthetics, not modeling or hobby, and I think it's a gross mischaracterization to assume any people who want narratives are doing so because they "want little or no assembly". From what I see, it's about getting a better-looking OOTB model than what is possible with the armor kits.


There are some incredibly nice narrative sculpts, but many of them shown during the KS looked like nothing that couldn't be easily done with armour kits even with no modelling at all.

I just think that if the ambition of the kits was scaled back a tiny bit (forearms should not be in two pieces for example) it would be much better. Or even if the narrative sculpts came with a few different gear options.

Part of the selling point of KD originally was that every piece of gear you could be equipped with was represented on the sprues somewhere. It will be quite a shame if that is lost.


I'm exceedingly doubtful that the Super Saviors or Death Armor could be approxmiated by armor kits in any effective way.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...

Given what Adam has shown with the Death Armor narratives, I think we can reasonably expect a few gear options on the narrative sculpts.

Everything is a tradeoff. While it's a loss to you, it's a net gain to me. If I could magically convert all of my armor kits to narratives, I'd certainly do so.
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Making dynamic survivors with armor kits are quite doable. The problem is that to do so requires significant modelling skills (green stuff sculpting). This level of miniature modelling is not only very much in the "miniatures" aspect of KDM, but being playing with modelling putty is already quite niche, and it's certainly not what the vast majority of KDM 1.5 community will put time into.

Lets face it, people bought into KDM 1.0 because the miniatures were awesome, and even if the rules were crap, at least the miniatures were awesome. Turned out that the rules were pretty damn good and KDM became a 'thing'. Everyone that's heard and got hyped about it bought into the 1.5 kickstarter.... but it doesn't mean they're hard-core miniature hobbyists.

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Leon026 wrote:
Making dynamic survivors with armor kits are quite doable. The problem is that to do so requires significant modelling skills (green stuff sculpting). This level of miniature modelling is not only very much in the "miniatures" aspect of KDM, but being playing with modelling putty is already quite niche, and it's certainly not what the vast majority of KDM 1.5 community will put time into.

Lets face it, people bought into KDM 1.0 because the miniatures were awesome, and even if the rules were crap, at least the miniatures were awesome. Turned out that the rules were pretty damn good and KDM became a 'thing'. Everyone that's heard and got hyped about it bought into the 1.5 kickstarter.... but it doesn't mean they're hard-core miniature hobbyists.


And all the KD resin miniatures on the store definitely modelling skills to assemble properly. In fact a lot of the monsters in KDM also need advanced modelling skills to build them without big gaps. It was a deliberate choice to make the 4 starting survivors quite straight forward to assemble. I'm not sure I would call using modelling putty 'niche' (depending on what wider context you compare it to) given the broad use in Warhammer and.. Well every other miniature game.

At the end of the day, this wasn't a decision about customers it was because it is much easier and cheaper for Adam to churn out narrative sculpts than armour kits. Adam has often said that miniatures are the core of his business (thus no miniature free version of the game) and he is compromising this aspect in the new KS. It just so happens that a lot of people don't care because they have board game background and are used to pushing cardboard into slots not having miniature assembling and painting as a part of the hobby.
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Wait, what do you mean that Adam "is compromising this aspect of the new KS"?

As I understand it, the narrative sculpts are more in line with what Kingdom Death was, and that the armor kits in 1.0 are the anomaly.

Also, as far as modeling skills go, there is a difference between merely assembling properly, whether resin or plastic, versus the additional step of resculpting an otherwise static (armor kit) model into something more dynamic (akin to a narrative sculpture).
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Nah, part of the original appeal of the first KS was that you could kitbash by default your own unique survivors, with your specific equipment.

The problem is, armor kits are expensive and look always worse than narrative sculpts, barring some more or less extensive interventions with green stuff. One of the worst offenders is the head, that requires a lot of work in the joint on the neck to not look stupid in some torsos.

So, this is not a step back as much as a step in another direction. I like kitbashing minis, but after core game and all expansions, everyone but the most aficionado out there can be fully satisfied of the level of customization needed, without the need of adding more entropy to the picture.

Frankly, as long as the minis stay top quality, I could not care less about this aspect. Especially after filling boxes over boxes with spare bits that (of course they are) are slightly off scale with the major miniature games that could use them.
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