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Subject: Can you elevator-pitch the game for me? rss

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Marcin Mościcki
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I just don't see it; currently it's positioned at the top of the price bracket, and it looks geared towards large armies, summing it up to one of the most expensive games to play. At the same time, it's board game mini quality - quite good, really - but few painters will probably pick them from the vast offer for that purpose. X-Wing sold, because they where nice prepaints and Star-Wars. I didn't lose my head over it, preferring Wings of War and Sails of Glory, but I certainly can see its appeal and I wish I had an opportunity to play a huge battle. Here they seemingly stroke out its two major advantages. It doesn't have a setting going for it, or a particularly original aesthetic. I would call the design quite controversial were it not for the fact that I see AoS the same way, and it sells, so might be the generation gap at play.

If I saw it on KS I would file it in 'poor guys, hope they don't lose too much money and heart after this, but nowadays it's nowhere near enough'. But it's FFG - they don't make bad games, at least not in recent years. Generally, even if something isn't my style or I own a preferable alternative, the games are quite interesting and I not only wouldn't turn down one, but actually seek out to play most at least once.

So, what gives? Is the simple, generic high fantasy actually a strength through its wide appeal, do I overvalue fluff which matters not for people without a foot in that market, are the mechanics the bees knees that eclipse everything else, is Asmode flexing its muscles and betting on its dealer network and ability to target a much larger market than a wargame from a smaller publisher could hope for?

Sorry for sounding negative, I don't mean to criticise
gaming preferences of others, especially not having played or seen the game myself. I see it as a good sign that FFG thinks the market is good enough for them and that they hope to open up the niche hobby; I even initially planned to buy quite a few skelletons to cannibalise for Kings of War and play the game as a side effect myself, but that was before I saw the prices... I am quite fond of the original Runewars board game, so I shouldn't be a lost cause; I sincerly hope that some cross-promotion will drive up sales enough for them to finally give us a proper expansion and finish the game, although the way they are heading now I doubt it...
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Chris Montgomery
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I think FFG's angle is that the miniatures market is bereft of "good games with good rules" -- GW's AoS opened a crack in the market, and Privateer Press, while making serious ground in market share over the past 10-15 years against GW, has really skewed toward the tournament scene with a 200 page well-written rulebook, but a lot of "take that" mechanics.

FFG is angling toward the "great game, simple rules, lots to think about" minis game -- easily accessible. It discards the old and tired "I move all my guys, you move all your guys" rule sets. It discards the "here's a 200-page rules book that doesn't matter because each miniature in our game line breaks these rules".

The only error I think they made was their price point. I think the base game is priced appropriately, but I think their expansion boxes should have been much cheaper. The minis are fine, but they really shouldn't command the dollar figure FFG is asking. They ahve already reduced the MSRP by $5 USD across the board, and I think after OLGS price discounts, this puts them in a competitive price range . . .

I've not played the game, but I have watched one full demo from Gen Con and read most of the articles. I am in the "wait and see" camp because I already have too many unplayed minis games on my shelves. But I d wish them well, and I think they can have a positive competitive effect on the rest of the miniatures gaming industry which really does rely on old tropes that have been recast in the same mold for over 30 years.
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Matt Price
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I'm in the "buy and try on day one" camp. The figures look really nice, from what we've seen, and will provide some variety for the hobbyist. The initiative system looks fun. I also very much like this style of army building game. I've played Kings of War a fair bit, and like that one a lot. This game looks to give that one a run for its money!

But like Chris above... I have too many minis games. I spend a lot of time painting, and not much time playing. Who knows how much table time this one will see?
 
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Jon Browne
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Also it's really not that expensive. The core set contains 100 points for each side, with a standard army being 200.

You can buy 2 core sets for £160~ and have two tournament legal armies and around 100 minis.
 
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I'd love to try and give you an elevator pitch, but I'm afraid I just don't have that much experience in other miniatures games to be able to say much. I'll try anyway.

Runewars is miniatures GAME first with a wonderful opportunity for boardgamers to experience the HOBBY aspect. I think that is the corner of the market FFG is going for.

FFG's Organized Play has been very successful. I highly anticipate this game to be one of the best tournament games available to date. Its rule-set seems built from the ground up to be streamlined and quick to accommodate a day of playing several games, while at the same time, not loosing the importance of strategy and tactics. X-Wing and Imperial Assault have had several revisions made to their tournament rules because they were designed with engaging gameplay in mind and then tournament rules were added to them. I expect Runewars to be ready for tournaments from day 1.

The hidden information on the dials is a time-tested winner of a mechanic that Runewars gladly adopts. Why is it such a good mechanic? Because players are forced to make choices with imperfect information, meaning that they have to learn how to predict their opponents and think several turns ahead. But the best part is that this dial mechanic surpasses X-Wing! In X-Wing, you don't know exactly where your opponent's ships will move, but you don't know when! That's something Runewars adds with an innovative initiative system where initiative order is built into your movement. This adds even more suspense to a game which increases the fun!

Another awesome improvement to the dial system is that your basic actions are built into the dial. No more moving and then hemming and hawing over whether to focus or target lock. No. Now you have to choose your action at the time you set your dial. However, upgrades and abilities can still be triggered as you see the battlefield, allowing commanders to fine tune their tactics on the fly, as well.

Is this game expensive? Yes, it is. You basically have a 3D piece of plastic representing each hit point of most units. That may seem excessive to some boardgamers, but it really does a lot to add to the visual appeal and visual excitement of Runewars. If you don't want miniatures, don't play a miniatures game. But if you want to play a beautiful game with strategic depth, this seems like the game of the year.

I have no facts on any of this, because the game hasn't come out yet, but these are the things I am looking forward to with Runewars: great tournament rules, engaging game play, models that will look great when painted.

And you know what? I haven't even touched on the theme yet. For many people the theme is bland and has been done a dozen times over. For me, Terrinoth was my first exposure into fantasy (I played Rune Age before I read the Lord of the Rings). I could not be more excited about any other miniatures game.
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I am more of a Frostgrave player but I envision myself getting into the system in a limited capacity at first.

I wouldn't want to buy to much of any of it because to my mind I see them releasing alternative sculpt packs in second expansions later on. I have not read this anywhere nor has anyone told me but it reasons out logically that the best way to balance a game like this. Maybe they will wait till they have all four factions out but I would be very surprised that with the investments they have been making in their modeling division to have only two poses for Oathsworn Calavary for the durration of the games life cycle.

Myself I see this as cheaper than 40k and more readily available than Warhammer Fantasy. The newly announced "A Song of Ice and Fire" game sounds neat but I like the classical D&D style of fantasy and this does it for me. Perhaps we will even get Mercenaries or Dragons!

Honestly if your feeling luke warm about it; trust your gut. Let other people take the plunge and get some demo games under your belt before buying.

I picked up a massive set of paints from Army Painter just for Runeawars as Christian mentioned them by name I think during the Announcement at Gencon. I have been painting Tabletop World buildings for Frostgrave and Runewars. I think they will fit it just great.

Oh you mentioned Lore. The game comes with a 30 page Lore book and I will eat said book if they do not release hardcover source book like they did for Netrunner and there other universes.

Well sorry for the length of my reply. I think that Ruenwars the board game is better positioned for expansions or a new revision more so than battlelore but I hope I am wrong and both see growth.
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CMON have just announced a rank-and-file miniatures game in the Game of Thrones setting, too. There's a lot of competition in this area, and since it's such a big investment to really get into a system, one must make one's choices wisely!
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Budgernaut wrote:
Terrinoth was my first exposure into fantasy (I played Rune Age before I read the Lord of the Rings).


Well that made me feel old. And fortunate.
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Miles Stevenson
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I think you really hit on something when you mentioned mechanics being more interesting and important than the fluff for a growing number of gamers. I'm definitely in that category. It's why I would much rather play a campaign of Descent than D&D. I like the theme, the style, and the flavor of the fictional worlds, but when a game starts going deep into their own lore and expecting me to get engrossed in the 500 year history of the dragon-wizards I'm pretty much out.

The mechanics of this system look really good to me. The only reason I don't plan to jump in is because this is more of a mass-miniatures game, and I just don't have the space on my shelves for boxes and boxes of this stuff. And I know that if I get started, I won't stop. An entire shelf full of Dust miniature that never get played is a testament to that.
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Jim Patching
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The miniatures and setting just don't do anything for me. The game itself actually looks pretty good but for me a massive part of miniature gaming is the aesthetics and if I'm not getting that vibe I'm unlikely to be arsed assembling and painting an army.
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ash tekka
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I lover Terrinoth and all the games set in ti so far.
I played this at Gen Con last year and really enjoyed it.
I plan on buying all the things because that's how I am, however, I have a feeling this will end up in the corner with my d&d attack wing collection as I have a hard time seeing it really take off.
The two main issues I see:
Appealing to the xwing crowd but the miniatures aren't prepainted or ready to go out of the box.
Appealing to the wargaming crowd but keeping the "buy all expansions for upgrade cards" that xwing has.
I'll be getting the game for my wife and me but I am not going to be able to convince my friends to buy into it...

Shame really as it is a fantastic game and has such a different play style to my many many other miniatures games.
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Garrett
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UniversalHead wrote:
Budgernaut wrote:
Terrinoth was my first exposure into fantasy (I played Rune Age before I read the Lord of the Rings).


Well that made me feel old. And fortunate.


Maybe you are old, but I don't consider myself young at 32. I just read way more sci-fi stuff than fantasy as a younger lad.
 
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I'm 51 - 32 certainly does seem young (though I don't feel old at all)! Just kidding around with my comment.
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Marcin Mościcki
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Oh, I am crunch first, too - when I play a game, I play for the 'duel of minds' experience above all. I still am a sucker for any compelling - original or deep - fluff, just that if the game isn't up to snuff I will happily limit myself to reading it online or painting the minis. I don't play wh40k for example, but reading about it on 1d4chan is much better

I think however that the world isn't as empty as you paint it and that there are quite a few good rulesets, a lot of great minis and several lovely settings. Not always from the same publisher, but still It is true that the choice is much less wide in rank and file, but the problem with this format is that it requires a huge investment in time and money; I can buy a starter warband for a skirmish, paint it over the weekend and play a demo on Monday. With mass battles one becomes much more picky, so where a new board game from FFG might get easily bought just to try it out with high likelyhood of passing it on after one or two games, without miniature cross-compatibility which FFG very carefully prevented, I can't see myself starting anything I wasn't enthusiastic about. Hard to say without trying, but to my eye about three core sets start to 'look' like an army, which easilly gets one an army in any other system, and preorders for individual units are priced here above corresponding regiments from GW at fewer figures per box (oh the irony!). It might be baseless intuition seeded from my initial interest into getting a lot of rank anf file grunts for variability in KoW, in which by the looks of it tournament armies are considerably bigger.

I love action programming, which maybe my favorite mechanic, but felt that X-Wing didn't do it justice - other games offered more food for mind games. And there at least it made thematic sense that fighters missed each other and Imemelman'ed back. Here situations where opposing regiments suddenly turn in opposite directions, or by bad guess a unit exposes it's rear to the enemy might be less belivable and detract from the immersion.
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schizoferret wrote:
I think however that the world isn't as empty as you paint it and that there are quite a few good rulesets, a lot of great minis and several lovely settings.


Right. Which is why I said,

Budgernaut wrote:
I'd love to try and give you an elevator pitch, but I'm afraid I just don't have that much experience in other miniatures games to be able to say much.
 
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Dakka's not too enthusiastic about Runewars. Frostgrave is getting a good reception, and their successful Nickstarter (more of a pre-order, since books were shipped right after the campaign) was well-received.

Main problem is that most miniature wargames are "lifestyle" games. Not only do you sink money into one (or two) factions, you have to find an opponent who has also spent money, and you are expected to paint the miniatures. That's a far cry from FFG's traditional audience of boardgamers and even LCG players.

Some miniature wargame companies knew this, so created rulesets -- like Frostgrave -- which required far fewer miniatures to play, or rulesets -- like Kings of War -- which didn't require proprietary models or other components.

I'll still say that the Terrinoth IP isn't very interesting, especially given that it's had *years* to be developed through FFG boardgames. It's pretty much just generic fantasy, which is fine if you want to sell a set of mechanics, but not when you're trying to build up IP. It certainly doesn't have the appeal that Star Wars has, nor, I think, even that of the FFG Arkham games.
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Chris Montgomery
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Sam and Max wrote:
I'll still say that the Terrinoth IP isn't very interesting, especially given that it's had *years* to be developed through FFG boardgames. It's pretty much just generic fantasy, which is fine if you want to sell a set of mechanics, but not when you're trying to build up IP. It certainly doesn't have the appeal that Star Wars has, nor, I think, even that of the FFG Arkham games.


I said basically the same thing on FFG's forums during the debate about FFG's initial pricing model -- the IP just doesn't command enough authority and the miniatures aren't good enough -- to ask such prices. Terrinoth really needs to be *really* fleshed out. While the setting has some fans, it is, for most gamers, a "generic" fantasy setting.
 
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Speaking as someone who has been deeply into minis games for many years, I've been a high level tournament player as well as a playtester and part-time employee...

Most people who want a real minis game want a lifestyle game. They know what the deal is and they're OK with it. In their mind it's a fair trade, you're paying more money but you're getting something you can play every week for years to come so the value is there. Boardgamers sometimes envy the sort of depth or gameplay that minis games offer, but are generally turned off by the cost and dedication. See games like Netrunner for another example - plenty of threads are devoted to people complaining about the price and also complaining about how the guys at the local game store ruthlessly crush them like a bug and why can't everyone just get along and play the game at a patty-cake level so we can all have fun? That's the dedication aspect.

Taking X-Wing as another example, you can also see a huge gap between the kitchen-table players who have bought a core set and a few extra ships versus the guys that go to a regular game night and play in tournaments.

The reason why X-Wing blurs the lines more than usual is because of the Star War IP being so attractive and the scale of the game being so small, meaning that you can play at a very minimal cost if you want to.

Runewars doesn't have that low cost buy-in, so once again we'll probably see mostly players that want an experience distinctly different from boardgames and are OK with the price. It also doesn't have an attractive IP. In fact, it's an extremely weak IP for a minis game. This is not just because it isn't a well known "name brand". MOST minis games have made up IPs, that's common. But also because the world is massively generic and so lacking in faction personalities. If you look at Runewars next to something like Warmachine it's just an enormous difference, like Hot Wheels vs. an aircraft carrier scale.

And this is one of FFGs weakest points really. They are not used to games where you collect one faction and that faction has to be "your" faction. They're used to boardgames and people owning every faction, so all factions tend to be fairly bland and generic. This is miles away from what minis gamers want. You're putting a lot of money into "your" army, and maybe a lot of hours of painting too, and then years of practicing and playing with them, and many more hours of discussing them on your faction forums. You just aren't going to feel like doing all that with some random guys that you don't give a crap about. Your faction has to be yours, you have to feel a connection to them. Runewars is amazingly weak in this area and I'm not sure what FFG will be able to do to try to improve it.

Personally I can deal with the boardgame level minis (assuming I don't have to paint them) more than the lack of personality.
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From what I've seen so far, the new A Song of Fire&Ice looks better, deeper, and far more promising than Runewars. Time will tell, though.

PS There's also a new game set in AoS to be released at the end of the year.
 
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Marcin Mościcki
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We don't know almost anything about ASoIaF, do we? I certainly bet on it fluffwise and figurewise (CMoN minis for 7Sins where awesome both in detail and sculpts). Ruleswise and balancewise hard to say, I'd give an edge to FFG if it wasn't based on X-Wing, which for me doesn't make sense in this scale. The thing that worries me most is the reputed adaptability for both skirmish and mass battle scales, I find it hard to imagine.

Also, I'll have to see it in person, but current standard of de facto 35mm minis is great for board games and skirmishes for both convenience and details, but to my eyes a regiment of 4x3 doesn't look like a proper block of infantry. I hope they won't go the FFG way - heavy on additional components precluding using proxies - and I would have an excuse for making fireforge knights/men at arms, lovely models.

And the new AoS game is the Necromunda successor, isn't it? New mechanics probably, but a relatively closed and more boardgame-like system, I gather.
 
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Echtalion wrote:
From what I've seen so far, the new A Song of Fire&Ice looks better, deeper, and far more promising than Runewars.


Based on what exactly? I haven't seen anything about gameplay yet. If you have a link, please post it for all of us.
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schizoferret wrote:

And the new AoS game is the Necromunda successor, isn't it? New mechanics probably, but a relatively closed and more boardgame-like system, I gather.


That game comes out next month (my money is already ear-marked).

However, GW also announced an AoS game called Shadespire for later in the year. But that's an arena combat game.
 
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I'm a big fan of FFG. I love the Terrinoth setting. I love Runewars, Descent (1 and 2), Runebound...I've been playing and enjoying FFG's home grown fantasy line for over 10 years.

I'm not thrilled with the RMG. I will barely blink to drop $100 on a big box coffin game like Descent or Runewars, but that's a one and done purchase (if I want...I know Descent has tons of expansions, but you get a whole lot of replay value in just the core box, you don't need to buy anything else).

I've played X-Wing, and tried twice to get into it, failing both times. I was all-in on the D&D Attack Wing game (not FFG, I know), so I know and like the hidden dial programmed movement game.

And still RMG isn't doing much for me. Part of it is the price point. You need 2 starters for a standard game, and at $100 SRP a pop, that's asking a lot out of new players. Even splitting with a friend so you can each have one full 200 point faction is asking a lot, when you have comparable products selling for less.

But good gameplay can overcome this. FFG needs to hit the con circuit this year HARD with demos and pushing the game if they hope to succeed. This is a crowded market, and they need to make a good game that's easy to get in to, and AVAILABLE (I'm looking at you SW DESTINY!).
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cmontgo2 wrote:
I think FFG's angle is that the miniatures market is bereft of "good games with good rules" --
Kings of War

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I guess games workshop is still the big boy on the block, but I also see this game really competing against Kings of War too.

Though everytime I go to check out a new FLGS... It's always AoS they're playing, never KoW. I think GW still does have the stranglehold on table top wargames.
 
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