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Subject: Rising Sun a boon to other Kickstarters? rss

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Jason Brown
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I'm backing 3 other games on KS right now (adding another tomorrow ) and I've seen backers in 2 of those forums say that RS hurt the campaigns. When I checked Kicktraq though, both campaigns had one of their best days on the day RS launched, and neither suffered any loss of momentum.

It makes sense to us Geeks that a big game competes for dollars and takes away from other campaigns, but the reality doesn't match. Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

With that in mind, does it make sense for smaller publishers making dissimilar games to time their campaigns to coincide with CMON and other mega campaigns?
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People only have so much they can spend on KS (some more than others). So running campaigns against each other will hurt the totals. I don't know if there really is a time where there isn't at least one "big" game KS going on, so not sure how they could really avoid it.

Not sure how you can prove the Rising Sun has helped other campaign. I am not going to back something else just because i backed Rising Sun, it's all about what they offer.

I am in for GKR and Rising Sun, if one of those wasn't happening then I would have backed Empires of the Void II. As it stands Empires loses out.
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Wll I don't have all the facts available but it seems obvious that a lot of people don't have the budget to back an unilimted number of kickstarters. So yes, if a big one like Rising Sun is released with the big CMON name and piles of unlocked stretch goals that's not good news for the average kickstarter creator. Who can not compete with the sheer amount of content that is being offered by CMON. I have read on a regiular basis from other creators that they are not particularly happy with big projects that coincide with their small crowdfunding. It certainly doesn't help.

That it does help bringing people to kickstarter - there you have a point, though. I can imagine that for instance people that like Blood Rage and notice the retail version doesn't have those special monsters may be more interested to back the KS version of a similar game themselves.
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KS isn't zero-sum, and the additional money may have been generated by backers who originally intended to fund Rising Sun. RS doesn't have many add-ons yet, and this add-on money may have been spent on other KS. I know Dakka's been talking up Relic Knights, which makes sense, since the figures there are resin, not plastic, and the game is more of a miniatures skirmish game, not a boardgame, so appeals more to the Dakka community.

No idea about when smaller publishers should run a KS, and if anyone has any articles, please post. I do know we had threads here from potential backers who did not like XYZ about the RS KS, and these backers are potential funders for other projects. Maybe a 2+ player, no miniatures, non-gory, non-mythological feudal Japan with gender balance and ponies would have been good to KS this month...
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
It makes sense to us Geeks that a big game competes for dollars and takes away from other campaigns, but the reality doesn't match. Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

I don't think Rising Sun will be that influential as a campaign. It's easy to see how successful it is when you're reading the Rising Sun forums, but I don't think it will break records set by other top-grossing Kickstarter boardgames.
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'm backing 3 other games on KS right now (adding another tomorrow ) and I've seen backers in 2 of those forums say that RS hurt the campaigns. When I checked Kicktraq though, both campaigns had one of their best days on the day RS launched, and neither suffered any loss of momentum.

It makes sense to us Geeks that a big game competes for dollars and takes away from other campaigns, but the reality doesn't match. Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

With that in mind, does it make sense for smaller publishers making dissimilar games to time their campaigns to coincide with CMON and other mega campaigns?


I doubt a KS like this really impacts others all that much. there's a few lesser titles running KS right now for expansions to existing games and even new start ups that are doing just fine.

If any KS hurt other KS projects it would be the KDM Kickstarter. I imagine the upper tier pledges for that KS emptied many wallets for this year and perhaps into the next one.
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Brett Miller
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'm backing 3 other games on KS right now (adding another tomorrow ) and I've seen backers in 2 of those forums say that RS hurt the campaigns. When I checked Kicktraq though, both campaigns had one of their best days on the day RS launched, and neither suffered any loss of momentum.

It makes sense to us Geeks that a big game competes for dollars and takes away from other campaigns, but the reality doesn't match. Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

With that in mind, does it make sense for smaller publishers making dissimilar games to time their campaigns to coincide with CMON and other mega campaigns?


Speaking for myself first, I personally avoid KS a lot of the time because I can't afford to back too many games and so I would rather no know about them. But I have certainly been looking forward to RS and so I backed it day one, and more than once I will check on it and then explore for a bit and find another game that looks pretty cool. I have even backed one, and I almost backed GKR... so that seems to lend credence to your theory.

Also, it occurs to me that there is an economic theory called central place theory that might explain why this would occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_place_theory

Among many other phenomena, CPT helps explain why certain arrangments that seem illogical actually make sense. For instance, ever notice that car dealers are often found right next to each other? This could be due to Hotelling's law whereby producers seek to steal each other's market by moving closer together both spatially and in terms of the product they sell, which is obviously a product of competition, but it could also be a product of the fact that both car dealers actually benefit by being close to each other because they are enticing people to go see one of the other with the promise that if they don't have the other guy will, and vice versa, and the other guy is right there. This is why cities used to have districts such as a flower district, where firms actually benefited from being chock a block with each other because the number one thing was to get people out of their houses and in the area with a mind to buy.

So, I see a plausible reason why RS could be good for other KS.

I am actually a PhD student (in sociology not economics) and I have often wanted to do a study that looks at the spatial aspects of the internet...

Anyway, good observation (by OP) IMHO
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galaxybear wrote:

Speaking for myself first, I personally avoid KS a lot of the time because I can't afford to back too many games and so I would rather no know about them. But I have certainly been looking forward to RS and so I backed it day one, and more than once I will check on it and then explore for a bit and find another game that looks pretty cool. I have even backed one, and I almost backed GKR... so that seems to lend credence to your theory.

Also, it occurs to me that there is an economic theory called central place theory that might explain why this would occur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_place_theory

Among many other phenomena, CPT helps explain why certain arrangments that seem illogical actually make sense. For instance, ever notice that car dealers are often found right next to each other? This could be due to Hotelling's law whereby producers seek to steal each other's market by moving closer together both spatially and in terms of the product they sell, which is obviously a product of competition, but it could also be a product of the fact that both car dealers actually benefit by being close to each other because they are enticing people to go see one of the other with the promise that if they don't have the other guy will, and vice versa, and the other guy is right there. This is why cities used to have districts such as a flower district, where firms actually benefited from being chock a block with each other because the number one thing was to get people out of their houses and in the area with a mind to buy.

So, I see a plausible reason why RS could be good for other KS.

I am actually a PhD student (in sociology not economics) and I have often wanted to do a study that looks at the spatial aspects of the internet...

Anyway, good observation (by OP) IMHO


There's an interesting episode of Planet Money that focuses on the CPT,
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/11/06/164435445/episo...

Regardless, it worked on me. For various reasons, I usually avoid KS like the plague but was interested in Rising Sun due to the theme. I just backed my first KS, Food Truck Champion, because I found it while browsing the site. I love Carl Chudyk's games and it borrows heavily from designs while offering something a little different.

As for Rising Sun, the jury is still out. I'm reserving final judgement until I can actually read the rules.

Unfortunately, I tried to watch the video on the KS page. I usually love watching playthroughs even if the game is considered rather dry but that was just horrid. It should be offered as an example of 'what not to do' on your KS campaign. It left me with the feeling that I'd probably rather be playing Cosmic Encounter. The fact that I still have any interest at all is rather remarkable and a testament to the artists more than anything.
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Geoff ...
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

Let's look at some facts by comparing RS' introduction of new backers to similarly high-profile / heavily marketed Kickstarters.

New backers introduced to Kickstarter:

Rising Sun 1,696 (so far)
Scythe 1,661
Massive Darkness 2,451
Zombicide: Black Plague 3,867
Dark Souls 9,257
Conan 4,147
Kingdom Death 1.5 3,068

Rising Sun's new backer count is great, but it has not introduced anymore backers than similarly marketed high profile campaigns.
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Jason Brown
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How did you get those numbers?

Also, my post isn't about comparing RS to other projects, it's about whether large projects are actually good for smaller ones. People love to say KDM wrecked other projects because it cost so much, but is that really true?
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Geoff ...
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
How did you get those numbers?

Click on the community tab of a given Kickstarter.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Dormammu wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
It makes sense to us Geeks that a big game competes for dollars and takes away from other campaigns, but the reality doesn't match. Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

I don't think Rising Sun will be that influential as a campaign. It's easy to see how successful it is when you're reading the Rising Sun forums, but I don't think it will break records set by other top-grossing Kickstarter boardgames.


It's currently sitting at the 12th-highest-funded board game (ignoring non-game game accessories, like Reaper Bones minis, Dwarven Forge terrain, and gaming tables). Realistically, it'll soon pass Zombicide Season 2, and has a good chance of passing Mythic Battles and Zombicide Season 3 to settle in at #9 somewhere below the $3.2M of Bears vs Babies.
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I have been taking a break from Kickstarter for a while now. For reasons that don't actually make sense to me, since I backed RS I have backed 4 other games. So, according to my completely scientific analysis, RS has been very beneficial to other games on KS.
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Mike Ellis
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Totally. I backed 4 other games on kickstarter. The only reason I even logged into kickstarter after a long hiatus (still waiting on my numenera books monte cook!) was because of Rising Sun.

If I ever kickstart I'll do it the day before Eric Lang does. whistle
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Christiaan G
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I have been waiting for Rising Sun for a quite a while, but when projects are created at the same times I need to make choices. It has been a good month for new games at kickstarter.

Rising Sun
Thunderstone Quest
Raiders of the North Sea
Dinosaur Island
Exodus: Event Horizon
Quodd Heroes
Black Orchestra
Empires of the Void II

So that is a lot of money. I would have preferred to back them over the course of several months.
Luckily a friend of mine back Thunderstone Quest and Exodus. That way I'll play them there.
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MADG0BLIN wrote:
I have been waiting for Rising Sun for a quite a while, but when projects are created at the same times I need to make choices.


There are plenty of us with financial situations that don't leave us with such choices. My limiting factor is time, so I pretty much back anything I think I could get on a table and/or can resell for about what I paid. Interesting games with a ton of KS exclusives are almost an autoback for me because I'm confident I won't lose too much money on it.

And having a big interesting campaign that I follow does increase the odds I'll throw in on a smaller project because I'll have that much more exposure.
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Michael Scribner
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I often wonder if smaller companies consider the launch dates of these epic kickstarters before deciding when to launch their own. Right now I'm backing Rising Sun and GKR, and sadly had to decline backing another game I'd strongly been considering (The Pirate Republic) because it had the misfortune of going up against two juggernauts like these. I simply couldn't justify the financial strain of backing all three, so the smaller company lost out due to the added stretch goal value in those other two games (something the smaller company would have had difficulty matching). As someone else noted already, it seems like it's a rare month where there isn't at least one of these massive campaigns running, so I guess the little guys just have to pick their battles. Still, vying for dollars against CMON just seems like a bad bet...
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'm backing 3 other games on KS right now (adding another tomorrow ) and I've seen backers in 2 of those forums say that RS hurt the campaigns. When I checked Kicktraq though, both campaigns had one of their best days on the day RS launched, and neither suffered any loss of momentum.

It makes sense to us Geeks that a big game competes for dollars and takes away from other campaigns, but the reality doesn't match. Rising Sun has actually helped many other campaigns by bringing backers to Kickstarter in HUGE numbers.

With that in mind, does it make sense for smaller publishers making dissimilar games to time their campaigns to coincide with CMON and other mega campaigns?


Great insight. I think this can be illustrated in more common ways as the milk and bread principal that Grocers employ. Grocery stores put these staple items in the back of the store, and then place other items on the isle and in the checkout hoping that when you come to the store to pick up your milk, that you also stop and grab the other impulse items. Things that weren't on the front of your mind, but since you were in there you decided to shop around and see what else you might need. I think that this may have been true with the RS launch. People, who may not normally use kickstarter much, were there to pick up RS, and then decided to look around a little bit afterwards.
While it is true that some people did have to choose between say Rising Sun and Dinosaur Island, I would say that at least as many were there to get Rising Sun and happened across Dino Island as an example.

So to your point, it may be a wise choice for smaller publishers to time their campaigns to ride the coattails of these bigger campaigns.

Well done on the research and insight.
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Both sides are likely true. It just matters which happens more. KDM, RS, other huge Kickstarters lately are all bringing in more people through word of mouth and news articles.

However, I'm not Late Pledging Anachrony which I just learned about because I'm planning on using the extra funds on RS add ons. In my case, RS has limited how many Kickstarters I am funding in March/April. Ebb and flow, etc. Things are very rarely exclusively THIS or THAT.

If you forced me to make a guess though, I'd guess there's more new money coming in than there are people being limited to a single KS.
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vliam wrote:


There's an interesting episode of Planet Money that focuses on the CPT,
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/11/06/164435445/episo...

Regardless, it worked on me. For various reasons, I usually avoid KS like the plague but was interested in Rising Sun due to the theme. I just backed my first KS, Food Truck Champion, because I found it while browsing the site. I love Carl Chudyk's games and it borrows heavily from designs while offering something a little different.

As for Rising Sun, the jury is still out. I'm reserving final judgement until I can actually read the rules.

Unfortunately, I tried to watch the video on the KS page. I usually love watching playthroughs even if the game is considered rather dry but that was just horrid. It should be offered as an example of 'what not to do' on your KS campaign. It left me with the feeling that I'd probably rather be playing Cosmic Encounter. The fact that I still have any interest at all is rather remarkable and a testament to the artists more than anything.


I will have to check that out. I know what you mean about the video - to me it almost seemed like they were pretending to have a good time, which makes the game seem not fun, and they kind of hammed up the interactions. But, if people aren't good actors this is probably not a great way to go. As other people have mentioned, most CMON play videos are cringeworthy like this one including other Eric Lang designed games.

I, personally, have enjoyed every Lang game I have played (Chaos in the Old World, Kaos Ball, Blood Rage) so I have faith that I will enjoy this one too. I also really enjoy World of Smog, which had a horrible play video that did not do justice to a very abstract and thinky game.

100 dollars is a lot of coin though... I get it. But pledge so I can have moar stretch goals! I kid, I kid

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My hunch - from talks with other backers during campaigns - is that the very large KS-es, like Mythic Battles, which required several hundered dollars of investment, indeed hurt others, because the budget thing really comes into an effect. A high profile, or better prepared campaign also greatly hurt directly competing product - launching your large mini game during a CMoN crowdfunding quite often resulted in cancelled and postponed campaigns (although there were always other factors in play).

KS loses a lot of money by not having a quality recommendation engine which would notify you about something you are likeely to be interested in, and has a pretty bad search engine. I don't have time or will to routinely look through the projects, so I back either due to a scoop, by watching a forum topic where users drop links to things they think interesting, or by receiving a notice thanks to being a previous backer. Once already there, I will usually shop around as mentionned.

So, small - especially new - publishers who can't generate comparable hype themselves, and who have reasonable backing levels, I think actually piggyback on the large campaigns. While ostencious promotion of your game in other comment streams is against the rules and scorned upon, advert avatars are considered acceptable, and other campaigns often are mentionned naturally. I think about one third of the projects I backed I did so only because I came to back other campaign.

Also, it seems to me that for example scenery makers do aim to run alongside a matching game/miniature campaign.
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Geoff wrote:

New backers introduced to Kickstarter:

Rising Sun 1,696 (so far)
Scythe 1,661
Massive Darkness 2,451
Zombicide: Black Plague 3,867
Dark Souls 9,257
Conan 4,147
Kingdom Death 1.5 3,068

Rising Sun's new backer count is great, but it has not introduced anymore backers than similarly marketed high profile campaigns.


I would throw Dark Souls out as an anomaly. A huge video game franchise putting out a game doesn't really track with more traditional board games. It seemed clear to me early on that a lot of backers didn't care that there was almost zero known about gameplay--they just wanted minis from one of their favorite video games. If the game was remotely good, that was going to be a bonus.
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Geoff ...
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japester1 wrote:
Geoff wrote:

New backers introduced to Kickstarter:

Rising Sun 1,696 (so far)
Scythe 1,661
Massive Darkness 2,451
Zombicide: Black Plague 3,867
Dark Souls 9,257
Conan 4,147
Kingdom Death 1.5 3,068

Rising Sun's new backer count is great, but it has not introduced anymore backers than similarly marketed high profile campaigns.


I would throw Dark Souls out as an anomaly. A huge video game franchise putting out a game doesn't really track with more traditional board games. It seemed clear to me early on that a lot of backers didn't care that there was almost zero known about gameplay--they just wanted minis from one of their favorite video games. If the game was remotely good, that was going to be a bonus.

No I wouldn't "throw it out". It's bringing non-board gamers into the hobby, which cannot be said for most other games on the list.
 
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Jason Brown
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Geoff wrote:
japester1 wrote:
Geoff wrote:

New backers introduced to Kickstarter:

Rising Sun 1,696 (so far)
Scythe 1,661
Massive Darkness 2,451
Zombicide: Black Plague 3,867
Dark Souls 9,257
Conan 4,147
Kingdom Death 1.5 3,068

Rising Sun's new backer count is great, but it has not introduced anymore backers than similarly marketed high profile campaigns.


I would throw Dark Souls out as an anomaly. A huge video game franchise putting out a game doesn't really track with more traditional board games. It seemed clear to me early on that a lot of backers didn't care that there was almost zero known about gameplay--they just wanted minis from one of their favorite video games. If the game was remotely good, that was going to be a bonus.

No I wouldn't "throw it out". It's bringing non-board gamers into the hobby, which cannot be said for most other games on the list.

Exactly, and I'd wager that it generated more business for other games than most big projects for that reason.
 
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Geoff wrote:

No I wouldn't "throw it out". It's bringing non-board gamers into the hobby, which cannot be said for most other games on the list.


But did it? Or did people use KS for that one project?

If the main point is whether a big KS bringing in new users will help other gaming KS, then the other projects' numbers are likely more valid. Because those games were bought by board gamers. I still think the huge numbers from Dark Souls were video game players who popped in for that one gaming project primarily for the minis. Which is why the numbers are so far out of line with the rest.

Just my .02
 
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