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Subject: Global vs Party and Casual vs Campaign? (Spoilerish) rss

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Damien
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EDIT: This is mildly spoilerish (i.e., it suggests a few things about gameplay that aren't apparent until you get some way into the campaign.)

A few questions:

* Once a party has unlocked certain party achievements, some scenarios will become locked. I had assumed the designer's intent is that they are only locked for that party, so a group could start a new party to experience the scenarios they were locked out of. But the rules say "Once a scenario has been completed in campaign mode, it cannot be undertaken in campaign mode by any other party"(p34). So how does a second party get the pre-reqs for later scenarios if they cannot replay the scenarios that would provide the pre-reqs? Should a new party be allowed to take as many of the non-conflicting pre-reqs of another party as they want? Or should they use casual play to gain the party achievements? Or is the intent that certain paths be shutdown for all parties once an alternative path is taken? (Seems ridiculous.)

* In addition, if a party wants to take a casual run through scenarios that they are locked out of because they cannot satisfy an INCOMPLETE is it valid for them to take the experience and loot for the purpose of their ongoing campaign? i.e. Is it OK to live the alternative history?

* What changes are global in the sense that they apply to all parties? I think the list includes Gloomhaven prosperity, Global achievements, Stickered locations on the campaign board, The state of Road, City, and Random Scenario decks, Enhanced ability cards (makes my head hurt), Unsealed envelopes, the available shop cards, and taken treasure chests. Anything else?

* Can treasures chests only be taken in casual mode provided they haven't been taken already?
 
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Michael Trout
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Are you trying to have two completely separate campaigns? From what I know, if you are locked out of a scenario, you can play casual to play that scenario without needing any achievements, and not being restricted by any achievements either, so as long as you know that scenario exists, you can play it in casual.

In casual, you can't gain any scenario rewards, however you still gain exp and gold, as well as check marks and any contributions to your career goal.


If you are starting a completely fresh campaign with new people and they don't want to play "casual" and don't want to be restricted by what your previous campaign has altered, I think best idea is just to completely reset the game, although that might not be practical for you.
 
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Damien
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Troutyo wrote:
If you are starting a completely fresh campaign with new people and they don't want to play "casual" and don't want to be restricted by what your previous campaign has altered, I think best idea is just to completely reset the game, although that might not be practical for you.


Mostly what I want to do is:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Take a second party through the Diamond Mine path, which won't be possible for the first party that chose the Gloomhaven Warehouse path. It seems odd to me that you would need to reset the whole game just to take the alternative path. But I guess that might be the real bite of the legacy design.


But I also just want to know the answers to the questions so I can jump between campaign and casual across multiple parties without breaking the designer's intent.
 
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Troy Laurin
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foldedcard wrote:
A few questions:

* Once a party has unlocked certain party achievements, some scenarios will become locked. I gather the intent that they are only locked for that party, so a group could start a new party to experience the scenarios they were locked out of. But the rules say "Once a scenario has been completed in campaign mode, it cannot be undertaken in campaign mode by any other party"(p34). So how does a second party get the pre-reqs for later scenarios if they cannot replay the scenarios that would provide the pre-reqs? Should a new party be allowed to take as many of the non-conflicting pre-reqs of another party as they want? Or should they use casual play to gain the party achievements? Or is the intent that certain paths be shutdown for all parties once an alternative path is taken? (Seems ridiculous.)

If a particular scenario is unlocked by party achievements rather than global achievements, and it can subsequently be locked by a different party achievement, then that seems pretty intentional that only parties with the correct achievement can do that scenario (in campaign mode) and that they can be prevented from doing the scenario (in campaign mode) if they do something else instead.

On party achievements, I personally find it a bit messy that some scenarios are unlocked by party achievements rather than global achievements. I can kind of see the point in terms of creating a cohesive narrative within the world, but that only really applies if the parties speak to each other. For distinct parties in Gloomhaven, if the situation arises I'd be willing to give the second party a party achievement for completing a scenario in casual mode, just so scenarios won't be locked out by an occasional party not getting around to it for months. Most notably if your first campaign game is at home with your partner where you get the "Starting out" party achievement, preventing your regular game group from ever doing scenario #2 (raised multiple times in these forums).

Quote:
* In addition, if a party wants to take a casual run through scenarios that they are locked out of because they cannot satisfy an INCOMPLETE is it valid for them to take the experience and loot for the purpose of their ongoing campaign? i.e. Is it OK to live the alternative history?

Officially, it's not recommended to play scenarios in casual mode if they haven't been completed in campaign mode. It's just a recommendation though. If you can't officially play a scenario in campaign mode because it's permanently locked, it's up to you whether you want to play it in casual mode anyway.

Quote:
* What changes are global in the sense that they apply to all parties? I think the list includes Gloomhaven prosperity, Global achievements, Stickered locations on the campaign board, The state of Road, City, and Random Scenario decks, Enhanced ability cards (makes my head hurt), Unsealed envelopes, the available shop cards, and taken treasure chests. Anything else?

Probably easier to say that the only things that are individual to a party are written on the party sheet. Specifically, party achievements, reputation, current location.

Quote:
* Can treasures chests only be taken in casual mode provided they haven't been taken already?


p14: Treasure tiles can only be looted once.
p34 (emphasis mine): In casual mode, ... Players can still gain experience and money, loot treasure tiles, complete battle goals, and make progress toward completing their personal quests, but any story text or rewards listed at the end of the scenario are disregarded.
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Damien
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MrTroy wrote:

On party achievements, I personally find it a bit messy that some scenarios are unlocked by party achievements rather than global achievements. I can kind of see the point in terms of creating a cohesive narrative within the world, but that only really applies if the parties speak to each other. For distinct parties in Gloomhaven, if the situation arises I'd be willing to give the second party a party achievement for completing a scenario in casual mode, just so scenarios won't be locked out by an occasional party not getting around to it for months. Most notably if your first campaign game is at home with your partner where you get the "Starting out" party achievement, preventing your regular game group from ever doing scenario #2 (raised multiple times in these forums).


They can always do it in casual mode once the lovely couple finish scenario 2 themselves. But agree that the party achievement system can lock down large parts of the game for the other party for long periods of time.

I think you've now made it clear to me that multiple parties have to live the same experience, which means take all the same paths through the scenarios. So for example

Spoiler (click to reveal)

if party 1 takes the Gloomhaven Warehouse route then neither party 1 or party 2 can ever take the Diamond Mine route in campaign play. And if party 1 hasn't finished a chain that depends on an achievement that party 2 can't play, then party 2 has to wait. And it is strongly recommended that neither party 1 nor party 2 play those scenarios even in casual play. Which is all a bit rubbish, really, but I guess that's legacy. House ruling this away isn't completely trivial because you still need to address what to do with the contradictory global events that party 2 would unlock if on a different from party 1.


Anyway, it's pretty clear that you are just better off having a single party with a large number of characters that can drop in and out of play for any given scenario.
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