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Subject: Overpowered gods in Santorini? rss

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Dennis Hansen
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I Got this wonderful game on release but it has not been on the table that much at all. I Think that some of the gods Are quite overpowered. I've played a game Yesterday and my apponent got pan the god. The game Was over in about 5 minutes because my god do not have a chance against pan.

I Think the game is really good but the gods Are not too balanced.

Other People thinks the same?
 
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Bart R.
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It's true some gods are harder to counter, depending on which god the opponent is playing with. I don't think it was ever the intention to make the gods fully balanced though - with the amount of gods that come with the game, it's even downright impossible.
 
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Connor Cranston
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Yup, same here. We were very excited when we got this, but after about 20 plays where each time we ended with an anti climactic feeling, we haven't played it since. Debating whether to sell it now (Zeus edition) or give it another chance later on...
 
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Ray
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While I would not say gods are "balanced", they are pretty close for the variety you get.

Some matches really make you rethink your strategy. Like for Pan? You have to foil him and try to trap him. But be prepared to go for a regular victory too.

You also might want to draw 3 / pick one approach.

Or let your opponent pick your god out of the three.

You can also handicap yourself by just having one worker or start with two and predetermine how many rounds he lasts until he goes away.

The game begs for these little house rules to make things different.
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maj n. jeb
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I thought the rulebook says certain gods should not be played against others... I don't own the game but I believe I saw something to that extent when I had looked before. Also, I have no clue if Pan is listed in that...
 
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Keith B
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For me, the game is better without the Gods. Play it that way.
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Duncan Russell
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The game is broken!

It shouldn't need house rules.
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Frederic Heath-Renn
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This thread has some comments from the publisher on their goals in balancing the game and how they achieved it: Unbalanced matchups? how to fix them?

A thread about combatting Pan specifically: Is Pan more powerful than average?
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Yorick Heijink
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Khonnor wrote:
Yup, same here. We were very excited when we got this, but after about 20 plays where each time we ended with an anti climactic feeling, we haven't played it since. Debating whether to sell it now (Zeus edition) or give it another chance later on...

I dodged the bullet with this one. I was out to buy Santorini but it was sold out. I got Onitama instead and am still delighted with it!
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Matt Potter
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^ have you played it? I love the game, pan isn't too hard to counter. You have to follow and put a third level every time he builds a second. Never let him climb and trap him
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Chris Laudermilk
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Why is this here? This topic has been hashed over several times in the game's forums.

Edit: this has since been moved to where it belongs. Thanks, mods.
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Olli Juhala
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claudermilk wrote:
Why is this here? This topic has been hashed over several times in the game's forums.


Vitality-lacking equines are a naturally occurring animal here.
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Ray
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Barmybee wrote:
The game is broken!

It shouldn't need house rules.


It doesn't "need" them, but there is plenty of flexibility to cater to the needs of the players. I can play this against my 10 year old with easy to implement handicaps so I can really play against her and give her an equal shot.

The game is also quite good without powers.

Or by all means don't get, but if you like abstracts with a lot of variety ; I think you'll be missing out. I really love it.
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CARL SKUTSCH
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I think this post from another thread puts it well. Play 300 games and then you can start asking about overpowered. There may be overpowered matchups but I think they're probably much rarer than you think they are right now. (I also thought Pan was overpowered and I have been shown the error of my ways. Pan wasn't overpowered, I was just a bad player.)

mopeymatt wrote:
One of my favourite parts of this game is playing against someone who complains that their god is weak against my god and then switching with them. Sometimes it takes me a few games to figure out a way to play with that god and win in that situation, but I haven't come up with one where I felt like it isn't possible yet. I'm approaching 300 plays, and can say that the more experienced you get, the less you feel that this god is overpowered and another is underpowered.

As for the overall power balance of the gods, I can confirm that no gods that are released haven't been extensively tested. They all fall within an acceptable range of power that results in interesting play with nearly every matchup.

One last thing about perfectly balancing a game of this nature: It isn't difficult, it is literally impossible. Any game with assymetrical powers is unbalanced, period. That's not what matters, all that matters is whether or not there is interesting play and an equitable chance of winning within that imbalance.

There is, however, some gods that are more difficult than others to get the most out of. As far as I can tell, every claim of "_____ god is OP" is simply an less experienced player evaluating a god that is easy to play, and hasn't yet gained enough experience to properly evaluate the more nuanced god it was playing against.

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Dylan McCollum
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So you played one game with a God card that is, I'll admit tricky to get at first, and suddenly it's overpowered? This has been hashed out many times on this forum and it annoys me every time. They have been extensively tested, are pretty balanced for how many of them there are, and let's just hypothetically say Pan is overpowered, there are 29 other Gods to play with and the base game play with those.
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Dennis Hansen
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dylanmcla wrote:
So you played one game with a God card that is, I'll admit tricky to get at first, and suddenly it's overpowered? This has been hashed out many times on this forum and it annoys me every time. They have been extensively tested, are pretty balanced for how many of them there are, and let's just hypothetically say Pan is overpowered, there are 29 other Gods to play with and the base game play with those.


I have played it more than once
 
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Trevor Schadt
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dylanmcla wrote:
So you played one game with a God card that is, I'll admit tricky to get at first, and suddenly it's overpowered?
"I played one game and my opponent lost, obviously the power they were playing is overpowered and thus the game is broken" is a similarly often-abused equine carcass.
 
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Simon R
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Dummiz wrote:
dylanmcla wrote:
So you played one game with a God card that is, I'll admit tricky to get at first, and suddenly it's overpowered? This has been hashed out many times on this forum and it annoys me every time. They have been extensively tested, are pretty balanced for how many of them there are, and let's just hypothetically say Pan is overpowered, there are 29 other Gods to play with and the base game play with those.

I have played it more than once

Pan is a tricky god to play against at first, but once you get a bit of practice you will find that he is actually one of the weaker gods.

I have personally never lost a game when playing against him.

There is another thread somewhere around here specifically about Pan which details a number of ways to counter him.


As a previous poster pointed out: all asymmetrical games are unbalanced (that is literally what asymmetrical means) - the key part is how equal a chance each side has.

I personally think the powers in Santorini result in pretty much equal chance games - with the completely skewed/unfun matchups listed as banned.


I have had a few games against people who claimed a specific power was unstoppable and completely thrashed them.

'Unstoppable gods' are usually just a case of someone not having adapted their play style to take the power into account.

You can't play the exact same way against every god and expect to win. You have to adapt or die (figuratively speaking).
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Dapperghast Meowregard
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UnspeakableGamer wrote:

I have personally never lost a game when playing against him.


I can also attest to that, though granted I've only played against Pan twice, but among a collective ~25 games against three different opponents I've lost once, and I've been using the "deal 2 at random and pick one method, so if the game was broken I feel like I would be doing a lit worse statistically (Incidentally I've lost to other people so not trying to brag or anything, it just makes a good example).
 
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Spencer C
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UnspeakableGamer wrote:
As a previous poster pointed out: all asymmetrical games are unbalanced (that is literally what asymmetrical means) - the key part is how equal a chance each side has.


I agree with the thrust of what you're saying, but this specifically is incorrect. Asymmetric games can be balanced. An elephant and a mouse can balance a seesaw between them with the proper set up. Balance is precisely how even the odds are, regardless of how disparate individual attributes may be.
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Graham Zaretsky
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I think that part of the problem is that people are disregarding some official rules that were specifically put in place to deal with balance issues. Under the suggested rules, one player is supposed to pick both gods, and the other player picks which one of the gods he wants. It's kind of like I cut, you split. If one person picks Pan as one of the gods, it's his own fault if the second God he picks can't stand up to Pan.

Now of course, you don't have to use that rule. And it's easier if you aren't familiar with the Gods, to simply pick randomly. But if you pick randomly, then it's your own fault for the matches being unbalanced.

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Douglas Naaden
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UnspeakableGamer wrote:
Dummiz wrote:
dylanmcla wrote:
So you played one game with a God card that is, I'll admit tricky to get at first, and suddenly it's overpowered? This has been hashed out many times on this forum and it annoys me every time. They have been extensively tested, are pretty balanced for how many of them there are, and let's just hypothetically say Pan is overpowered, there are 29 other Gods to play with and the base game play with those.

I have played it more than once

Pan is a tricky god to play against at first, but once you get a bit of practice you will find that he is actually one of the weaker gods.

I have personally never lost a game when playing against him.


Same. When I first saw Pan's power, I was like, no way is this fair. So I always have other people play him. I haven't played a ton of games, but I haven't lost against Pan.
And last night when playing with a friend who thought Demeter was overpowered vs Pan, I switched gods and won. I've always been pleasantly surprised at how interestingly this game plays in spite of it's simplicity.
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