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Subject: A player can choose an action card without a leader rss

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Stefan
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Hey all,

So just reading a bit in the manual, this is interesting:

Page 11 RR:

"A player can choose an action card even if he cannot recruit any of the leaders on the card. He gains the card but does not recruit a new leader."

Only action card I can think of to choose over a leader is Noble sacrifice, a chance to gain 1 reputation is always good.

Anyone done this before as a strategy?
 
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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Noble sacrifice is not that awesome.

Now ' one in a million ' is a card that's worth going for in this specific case. That gives you two points instead of one, and is played at your terms, not like noble sacrifice.

Being as one in a million is the only card that's worth going for like this, logic dictates simply to not take both luke and wedge before you reach ' one in a million ' problem fixed.



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Andi Hub
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EDIT: I confused what Noble Sacrifice card is.
 
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Luke Heineman
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Provided you already have the leader shown on the card? That's how I interpret it. Otherwise you must recruit.
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Stefan
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lukeheineman99 wrote:
Provided you already have the leader shown on the card? That's how I interpret it. Otherwise you must recruit.


Yeah thats true but if you draw 2 action cards, one with a new leader and the other one is already ingame you can choose the one without recruiting a new leader, just taking the action card.
 
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Stefan
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ringo84 wrote:
EDIT: I confused what Noble Sacrifice card is.


Noble Sacrifice

Special

Use when this leader becomes captured. He is eliminated, and you gain 1 reputation.
 
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Stefan
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Sringoot wrote:

Noble sacrifice is not that awesome.

Now ' one in a million ' is a card that's worth going for in this specific case. That gives you two points instead of one, and is played at your terms, not like noble sacrifice.

Being as one in a million is the only card that's worth going for like this, logic dictates simply to not take both luke and wedge before you reach ' one in a million ' problem fixed.





You might be right about that. Forgot about one in a million for a minute there. I guess it also depends on the situation on the board, maybe there is an action card with like moving Rebel units that gives you a victory point when you play it on your next turn.
 
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Marty Sample
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Noble Sacrifice is good late in the game, but played early, the one Reputation is offset by having one less leader ( a good one to boot ) . In a recent game I played it about halfway through, but then one leader got turn, another Captured, and on what turned out to be the last turn, Luke got Detained in Dagobah after getting upgraded; I went into the final turn with half the leaders the Empire did.
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Simon Lindén
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Isn't the main problem with Noble Sacrifice that the opponent can deny you the possibility of ever playing it? How often does an imperial player capture Obi-Wan, knowing it may give the rebel player one reputation?

Or does this make for interesting tactics? Sending Obi-Wan behind enemy lines over and over, knowing that he runs a smaller risk of being captured...
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Scott Lewis
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Alandor wrote:
Or does this make for interesting tactics? Sending Obi-Wan behind enemy lines over and over, knowing that he runs a smaller risk of being captured...

In our games this is certainly true; if the Empire is afraid to capture him, then he becomes the go-to guy for Intel missions in more dangerous places.
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Stefan
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Alandor wrote:
Or does this make for interesting tactics? Sending Obi-Wan behind enemy lines over and over, knowing that he runs a smaller risk of being captured...

In our games this is certainly true; if the Empire is afraid to capture him, then he becomes the go-to guy for Intel missions in more dangerous places.


Interesting tactic
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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That's why Obi wan's sacrifice is pointless. If the Empire sees merit in taking him down they will. If they do not want the Rebels to gain the victory point, they simply let him do his intel mission. Who cares about infiltrate? Empire always has better things to do with it's leaders. The only good uses of capture are the good missions you can do after you captured. ( carbo freezing / turning luke to the dark side ) Capturing for the sake of capturing is pointless and poor play.
Empire dictates what's happening, not Rebels. It's like having the best basketball player ever in your team and your opponent decides to play football instead.

Useless card in terms of ' power ' and therefore absoluteley never worth skipping a leader for.








 
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Andi Hub
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Sringoot wrote:

That's why Obi wan's sacrifice is pointless. If the Empire sees merit in taking him down they will. If they do not want the Rebels to gain the victory point, they simply let him do his intel mission. Who cares about infiltrate? Empire always has better things to do with it's leaders. The only good uses of capture are the good missions you can do after you captured. ( carbo freezing / turning luke to the dark side ) Capturing for the sake of capturing is pointless and poor play.
Empire dictates what's happening, not Rebels. It's like having the best basketball player ever in your team and your opponent decides to play football instead.

Useless card in terms of ' power ' and therefore absoluteley never worth skipping a leader for.

But is not carbo freezing actually capturing for capturing's sake? Carbo freezing just lets you capture another Rebel leader.

A captured rebel leader costs an action round per round for the Rebel player or even more if they try to rescue the leader. So I do not think that this is poor play.
 
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Simon Lindén
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ringo84 wrote:

But is not carbo freezing actually capturing for capturing's sake? Carbo freezing just lets you capture another Rebel leader.

A captured rebel leader costs an action round per round for the Rebel player or even more if they try to rescue the leader. So I do not think that this is poor play.

Carbo freezing also makes te rebel player lose one reputation. Which I think is the main use of the card.

But I think capturing for its own sake can be useful in the early game when there aren't so many leaders in play. It has been pointed out however that if it results in both players exchanging actions just to liberate, recapture, oppose etc it is in favor of the rebels.
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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Carbo freezing gives you one more turn to catch the rebel base. The goal of the game is to catch the rebel base. Nothing else is more powerful in this game then to gain more turns, from an Imperial perspective.

Reducing rebel leadership does nothing from turns 3-4 and onwart. Wether they have 7 or 8 leaders, it does not change anything. Try and see it like this :

1) Rebels always have excess leadership in the mid and late game.

2) Empire always always has too little leadership

=> Investing empire leadership which is always too low, to reduce rebel leadership which is never too low, is simply pointless.


I'm not being harsh, just trying for helpfull.



 
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Andi Hub
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Sringoot wrote:

Carbo freezing gives you one more turn to catch the rebel base. The goal of the game is to catch the rebel base. Nothing else is more powerful in this game then to gain more turns, from an Imperial perspective.

Reducing rebel leadership does nothing from turns 3-4 and onwart. Wether they have 7 or 8 leaders, it does not change anything. Try and see it like this :

1) Rebels always have excess leadership in the mid and late game.

2) Empire always always has too little leadership

=> Investing empire leadership which is always too low, to reduce rebel leadership which is never too low, is simply pointless.


I'm not being harsh, just trying for helpfull.

I was not aware of the reputation loss of carbonite freezing. Of course, that is extremely valuable to the Imperial player.

I think it makes a lot of sense what you say about leadership and the excess/lack thereof.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Sringoot wrote:

That's why Obi wan's sacrifice is pointless.

I disagree. It's like Heart of the Empire in a way, in that it's very existence can impact the way the Empire plays. Even if not played directly, the threat of playing it can be influential. Plus, this influence can be had ever if the other Obi-Wan card is drawn instead.

Quote:
Useless card in terms of ' power ' and therefore absoluteley never worth skipping a leader for.

While I agree I wouldn't skip a leader just to take it, I wouldn't call it useless. Sometimes power comes indirectly.
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Simon Lindén
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Sringoot wrote:

That's why Obi wan's sacrifice is pointless.

I disagree. It's like Heart of the Empire in a way, in that it's very existence can impact the way the Empire plays. Even if not played directly, the threat of playing it can be influential. Plus, this influence can be had ever if the other Obi-Wan card is drawn instead.

I also disagree. Having a leader the opponent won't touch can hardly be seen as pointless. It can be used to your advantage. EDIT: "Won't touch" is not the right way to put it. "Reluctant to" may have been better.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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Sringoot wrote:

That's why Obi wan's sacrifice is pointless. If the Empire sees merit in taking him down they will. If they do not want the Rebels to gain the victory point, they simply let him do his intel mission. Who cares about infiltrate? Empire always has better things to do with it's leaders. The only good uses of capture are the good missions you can do after you captured. ( carbo freezing / turning luke to the dark side ) Capturing for the sake of capturing is pointless and poor play.
Empire dictates what's happening, not Rebels. It's like having the best basketball player ever in your team and your opponent decides to play football instead.

Useless card in terms of ' power ' and therefore absoluteley never worth skipping a leader for.


I disagree completely. Infiltrate is how the Rebels get their better Objectives, which is how they win the game.

If you think the Empire always dictates what's happening, you haven't seen a good Rebel player.
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Scott Lewis
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Sringoot wrote:
Empire dictates what's happening, not Rebels. It's like having the best basketball player ever in your team and your opponent decides to play football instead.

Overlooked this line the first time.

In my opinion, that's actually EXACTLY what the Rebels should be doing to win - throwing the Empire off their game, forcing them to play a different game than what they planned on. Every tactic they have that can do that is a weapon in their arsenal.
 
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Sringoot wrote:
Empire dictates what's happening, not Rebels. It's like having the best basketball player ever in your team and your opponent decides to play football instead.

Overlooked this line the first time.

In my opinion, that's actually EXACTLY what the Rebels should be doing to win - throwing the Empire off their game, forcing them to play a different game than what they planned on. Every tactic they have that can do that is a weapon in their arsenal.


I was commenting to the obi-wan sacrifice, how you as rebel player do not have control wether it goes off or not. It always leaves the empire player to chose the lesser of the two evils/outcomes ( trigger it or not ), depending on the specific situation in the game, one of the two will be quite ' bearable '



 
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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demoss1 wrote:
Sringoot wrote:

That's why Obi wan's sacrifice is pointless. If the Empire sees merit in taking him down they will. If they do not want the Rebels to gain the victory point, they simply let him do his intel mission. Who cares about infiltrate? Empire always has better things to do with it's leaders. The only good uses of capture are the good missions you can do after you captured. ( carbo freezing / turning luke to the dark side ) Capturing for the sake of capturing is pointless and poor play.
Empire dictates what's happening, not Rebels. It's like having the best basketball player ever in your team and your opponent decides to play football instead.

Useless card in terms of ' power ' and therefore absoluteley never worth skipping a leader for.


I disagree completely. Infiltrate is how the Rebels get their better Objectives, which is how they win the game.

If you think the Empire always dictates what's happening, you haven't seen a good Rebel player.


Maybe I haven't seen a good rebel player, but I'm fairly sure that if even skilled, Empire is still dictating. Their military advantage makes dictacting a lot more natural.

About infiltrate : while it is sometimes beneficial and gets you better objectives faster, countering it as the empire is simply not efficient.

It's way more efficient to counter the actual objectives from triggering, then to countering the rebel from infiltrating. Talking about the basic infiltrate mission now, the special ones are better.

Why not counter infiltrate/capture their infiltrating guys?

1) Sometimes/often their infiltrate will do nothing or very little ( especially in tiers I and III )They'll know what's comming but not change anything.

2) It's pretty hard to counter. You need to dedicate Yuralev if you even have him, and rebels have blue icons in plenty.

3) Most of the time, they will get those objectives before the end of the game. Everything in the early and early-mid game, the rebels will draw those objectives no matter what you do. Roughly all tier I objectives and 2-3(?) II objectives they will get before the game ends, talking an average game.

4) Any time you spend leadership to counter infiltrate, you waste it by not using that leadership to counter the triggers for the objectives. They can have all the objectives in the game, if you can block off them from triggering it means nothing.

5) Countering objective triggers ( for example removing sabotage counters ) simply goes with the natural flow of this game.

As the Empire you need to produce a lot of troops, and be able to deploy them close and fast to the rebel base when you locate it. And then have more troops on the other side of the map for when they move the base there.

=> this is the empire's main goal, keep this in mind...

This goes for a lot of the objectives. X systems have rebel loyalty: if you spend your leadership to substitute rebel loyalty with imperial loyalty, you gain more production ( and face less enemy production so double win ) and gain more places to deploy troops....

And so on for almoast every objective there is a great synergy in countering them before they happen, and your main goal as the empire.

Especially the tier I objectives diserve a special commendation: it's not really hard to get them all done in the course of a game, if the empire does not activly counter them from turn 1.

To conclude, I just say that the more the empire lets the rebel dictacte them the lesser the chance to win. There is almoast never a short timed-crisis in this game ( as the empire ). You have to think the long run in the early and mid game, only at the very end you need to be weary of getting your main fleet stuck by countering sabotage for example. Countering an infiltrate is letting the rebel player dictate you.


Thanks for your insights, only by talking about experiences we can learn and get better. And also by playing but let's face it 3 hours are not always available.


Cheers!












 
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Jason Sherlock
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I would generally take the one reputation point loss and deny the Rebels an important leader. One less Rebel is out there performing missions that could gain a lot more than one reputation point.

Giving over the initiative for fear of a minor setback is a sure way to lose.
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Mike
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Late in the game Noble Sacrifice is usually a no-brainer for the Rebels. Once they have 7 or 8 leaders they are often passing without using one or two of them each round, so giving up a surplus leader to shave a round off the game is an easy choice.

Early in the game, it's a different story. In the first couple of rounds the leader imbalance will likely be more important than the extra reputation point, especially if the Empire can push that advantage with Carbon Freeze or Lure.
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Simon Lindén
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ninjamatic3000 wrote:
Early in the game, it's a different story. In the first couple of rounds the leader imbalance will likely be more important than the extra reputation point, especially if the Empire can push that advantage with Carbon Freeze or Lure.

Of course, if Noble Sacrifice took effect (which you are talking about, right?) the Empire wouldn't be able to use Carbon Freeze or Lure.
If given the opportunity I would probably sacrifice Obi-Wan even in the early game. It's a high cost to pay for 1 rep but I think it's worth it.
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