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Subject: Another thread for some rules questions rss

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John Drama
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Sometimes reading the threads of others or even the faq brings up questions I didn't have before. Here are some:

1. From the faq:
Quote:
Can I target enemies out of my line-of-sight with an area attack?
No, you can only target enemies in your line of sight for all abilities. Or, more generally, you can't designate any ability to occur in a hex outside your line of sight.


I'm not sure if I understand this right. Lets say I play an ability that targets one hex and all 6 hexes sourrounding that one, like Spellweavers "Icy Blast" top. Lets say one of these 7 hexes is not in my line of sight. Lets say on all 7 hexes are monsters and I choose the hex in the middle as the middle of my attack. So does this rule above say, that this one hex, thats not in my sight, isn't affected by the attack?

To put this in the real world: I look to a door in diagonal direction and throw a bomb at the guy I see right behind the door. So this guy I see will be hurt, but the guy who is hiding behind the wall right next to the guy I see is not, although the explosion would affect him, if I could see him?


2. Regarding monster focus:
from the faq:
Quote:

Note that there may be some cases where a monster can't find a focus at all. In order to obtain focus on an enemy, there must be an unblocked path to an open hex where it could eventually move to and target the enemy. If an enemy can't find a focus, it doesn't move or attack on its turn and just performs any other abilities written on its card.


2.1 Say a Charakter is completely sourrounded by walls/obstacles/invisible characters. So a melee monster can't get in position to attack him, so will not move a all (if there are no other visible charakters). He will not even come closer to maybe have an empty hex in future turns, because the charakter can't be a focus. Right?

2.2 Say monster A is standing on a door. In the first room right next to this monster there is charakter 1, the second hex, that is next to the door is blocked by an obstacle. In the second room, two hexes away from Monster A there is monster B. No other charakters are on the board. If Monster A were an obstacle, Monster B would not move (because of no open hex reachable via unblocked path). Right?

But since Monster A is a Monster, Monster B will move one hex, even though Monster B can not reach a hex to melee attack charakter 1. This is because Monster A doesn't count as a blocked path for Monster B. Right? (Or doesn't it even find a focus because ending turn on the position of monster A is blocked and therefore no open hex can be reached?)

3. Brute Card "Warding Strength", bottom effect: "On the next six sources of damage from attacks targeting you, gain Shield 1."

3.1 If I get attacked by an enemy who has "pierce", I have to move the counter on my card, but get full damage. Right?

3.2 Do I have to use effects like this? (Or for example Spellweavers "Crackling Air" top effect. While it generelly says you can choose not to perform parts of your ability card, I think using this is obligatory. Right?

4. Mindthief Submissive Affliction - bottom action:
From the faq:
Quote:
Any added effects from the monster's stat card are also applied to the attack, and the monster uses the monster attack modifier deck.

So if the stat card says pierce, the attack controlled by me has pierce as well. But what about the effects from ability cards? Assumed the monster already had it's turn and had performed an ability giving strengthen to it, than the attack I'm doing with the monster is strengthened as well?

I guess that's it for now. I hope you get what I want, my english is far from perfect.
 
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Simon Skov
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1. You would not be able to target the enemy that you do not have LoS to with the attack.

2.1 Right, the monster would be unable to find a focus.

2.2 You are not allowed to place obstacles so that they completely block one part of the map off from the rest. However, even with monster A there it would not be able to find a focus. There is no path it can take to the empty hexes behind the hero, in the first room, and the other hexes are occupied.

3.1 Right, unless you have enough shield from other sources.

3.2 Abilities with charges (the circles) must be performed whenever the condition is satisfied.

4 I had not considered it! I would guess that even though you do not use any of the abilities on the monster's ability card for the turn, you still apply any conditions on the monster.
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Pete Thane
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1. If you think of the attack as a cone rather than a bomb as it were and that my help to explain it better. For those in site the "cone" hits them but for those obscured by the wall by the side of the door then the blast form the cone hits the wall instead.

2. Always fun one these but I think you have them right.

3.1 Pierce ignores shields but it would still trigger it the shield effect and use up a circle.

3.2 Yes you have to use them. You can ignore abilities on an card when you are activating it but in the case of these shields etc. the card has already been activated.

4. No just any thing on the stat card not the abilities on its ability card that has been drawn for that round. Issac has also commented about this "The monster attacks with a value of 2 at its base range. Any additional bonuses it gets from its stat card (poison, multiple targets, etc.) are also applied to the attack."

Taken from this thread
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1722550/mindthief-submissiv...

Reading through the thread you are replacing the normal attack with the an attack of 2 and from the look of it ignoring everything else apart from what is on the stat card.


 
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Sam S
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belborough wrote:


4. No just any thing on the stat card not the abilities on its ability card that has been drawn for that round. Issac has also commented about this "The monster attacks with a value of 2 at its base range. Any additional bonuses it gets from its stat card (poison, multiple targets, etc.) are also applied to the attack."

Taken from this thread
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1722550/mindthief-submissiv...

Reading through the thread you are replacing the normal attack with the an attack of 2 and from the look of it ignoring everything else apart from what is on the stat card.


Strengthen is a condition that was applied by the action card, but after that its a condition that applies to the monster regardless of the action card, so I don't think its the exact same situation.
 
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Pete Thane
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TheProdigal wrote:
belborough wrote:


4. No just any thing on the stat card not the abilities on its ability card that has been drawn for that round. Issac has also commented about this "The monster attacks with a value of 2 at its base range. Any additional bonuses it gets from its stat card (poison, multiple targets, etc.) are also applied to the attack."

Taken from this thread
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1722550/mindthief-submissiv...

Reading through the thread you are replacing the normal attack with the an attack of 2 and from the look of it ignoring everything else apart from what is on the stat card.


Strengthen is a condition that was applied by the action card, but after that its a condition that applies to the monster regardless of the action card, so I don't think its the exact same situation.


I can see where you are coming from with this but we are start getting into those grey areas as what happens if the creature is Muddled? Should it get Disadvantage because of this token, however as the Mindthief is controlling its mind and making it attack so why should it still be muddled for this forced action? So we have the situation of trying to work out which applies and maybe that's why perhaps Issac only references the stat card to make thing simpler.
 
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Jason Williams
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Lathspell wrote:
2.1 Say a Charakter is completely sourrounded by walls/obstacles/invisible characters. So a melee monster can't get in position to attack him, so will not move a all (if there are no other visible charakters). He will not even come closer to maybe have an empty hex in future turns, because the charakter can't be a focus. Right?


As stated earlier, via the rules (as say, the Cragheart) you are not allowed to move or place obstacles, etc.. down that would cause any part of the map to be completely cut off from another part of the map. You can't wall yourself in.
 
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Darby Harris
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GammaGoblinz wrote:
Lathspell wrote:
2.1 Say a Charakter is completely sourrounded by walls/obstacles/invisible characters. So a melee monster can't get in position to attack him, so will not move a all (if there are no other visible charakters). He will not even come closer to maybe have an empty hex in future turns, because the charakter can't be a focus. Right?


As stated earlier, via the rules (as say, the Cragheart) you are not allowed to move or place obstacles, etc.. down that would cause any part of the map to be completely cut off from another part of the map. You can't wall yourself in.


You can with invisible characters though.
 
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John Drama
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belborough wrote:
1. If you think of the attack as a cone rather than a bomb as it were and that my help to explain it better. For those in site the "cone" hits them but for those obscured by the wall by the side of the door then the blast form the cone hits the wall instead.


This makes indeed sense with my real world example. But it doesn't for the gameplay situation I had in mind.



I'm think of Spellweavers "Icy Blast" top ability, which can target 7 hexes in a circle. Since line of sight is blocked by touching wallcorners, the two elites in the picture are out of sight. I'd like the worm no.1 to be the center of the effect area. If the attack was a cone, than the wolf in front of me would be hit as well. So it's at least something like a bomb, doing nothing until it reaches its target and then "explodes" so should also hit the elites. Thematically it makes no sense to me, that it doesn't. There is just no difference if I can see the hex or not.
Additionally theres this rule that says only one hex of an area effect needs to be in range, so to me it would make perfect sense if this were true for line of sight as well.

But okay, if this is the rule, then this is the rule and I will play by it. Just wanted to point out what I think.

nom_ wrote:

2.2However, even with monster A there it would not be able to find a focus. There is no path it can take to the empty hexes behind the hero, in the first room, and the other hexes are occupied.

Wouldn't the hex it wanted to go to be the one with monster A? Of course it can not end there this turn, but it eventually can in future turns.
faq says:
Quote:
It doesn't matter if the monster can't get within range with the movement it has, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range

Of course this quote refers to movementrange, but it says "eventually". Since the hex with monster A is not blocked for monster B per se, I'm not sure if it considers the field to be unblocked for findung focus?

belborough wrote:
TheProdigal wrote:
belborough wrote:


4. No just any thing on the stat card not the abilities on its ability card that has been drawn for that round. Issac has also commented about this "The monster attacks with a value of 2 at its base range. Any additional bonuses it gets from its stat card (poison, multiple targets, etc.) are also applied to the attack."

Taken from this thread
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1722550/mindthief-submissiv...

Reading through the thread you are replacing the normal attack with the an attack of 2 and from the look of it ignoring everything else apart from what is on the stat card.


Strengthen is a condition that was applied by the action card, but after that its a condition that applies to the monster regardless of the action card, so I don't think its the exact same situation.


I can see where you are coming from with this but we are start getting into those grey areas as what happens if the creature is Muddled? Should it get Disadvantage because of this token, however as the Mindthief is controlling its mind and making it attack so why should it still be muddled for this forced action? So we have the situation of trying to work out which applies and maybe that's why perhaps Issac only references the stat card to make thing simpler.


This was what I was thinking about. I'd also say yes to muddle. If conditions count, then all of them. But if they are not meant to, I'm fine with it.
 
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Simon Skov
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Lathspell wrote:
nom_ wrote:

2.2However, even with monster A there it would not be able to find a focus. There is no path it can take to the empty hexes behind the hero, in the first room, and the other hexes are occupied.

Wouldn't the hex it wanted to go to be the one with monster A? Of course it can not end there this turn, but it eventually can in future turns.
faq says:
Quote:
It doesn't matter if the monster can't get within range with the movement it has, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range

Of course this quote refers to movementrange, but it says "eventually". Since the hex with monster A is not blocked for monster B per se, I'm not sure if it considers the field to be unblocked for findung focus?

For determining its focus monster B is looking for a hex it can attack from. It cannot attack from the hex that monster A is in, since it is occupied, so monster B does not consider it. Thus monster B is unable to find a focus, just as in your question 2.1.
 
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Jakob Kaine
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I think you make some really good points.

For example, it makes absolutely no sense to me that a melee monster will stand and not move closer to a hero that it can clearly see in the next room because an invisible hero that it cannot see is standing in the doorway. What??

An ability named "icy blast" needs line of site to do damage in its area of effect? What??

A monster standing two hexes away from its focus will instead move 10 hexes in a completely different route to reach a hex where it can attack because an enemy ally is standing in an adjacent hex and there is no other way to attack the hero? What??

In our games we just simply ignore these situations. We give the enemies some credit and expect them to have some kind of brains. In our game, an enemy is not going to just stand there like an idiot and not move closer to a threat simply because there is something standing in the doorway that it cannot see. In our game, enemies don't wander 10 hexes in a different direction to get to their focus because an ally is standing where they want to stand. Our AoE's don't need line of sight, for both monsters and heroes.

I've played the game enough times to know what would break the game and what wouldn't. Our rules generally make the game harder for us and we like it that way. I would say play the game the way it makes the most sense to you, because, quite frankly, it's more fun that way.
 
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Thomas A
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Lathspell wrote:

This makes indeed sense with my real world example. But it doesn't for the gameplay situation I had in mind.



I'm think of Spellweavers "Icy Blast" top ability, which can target 7 hexes in a circle. Since line of sight is blocked by touching wallcorners, the two elites in the picture are out of sight. I'd like the worm no.1 to be the center of the effect area. If the attack was a cone, than the wolf in front of me would be hit as well. So it's at least something like a bomb, doing nothing until it reaches its target and then "explodes" so should also hit the elites. Thematically it makes no sense to me, that it doesn't. There is just no difference if I can see the hex or not.
Additionally theres this rule that says only one hex of an area effect needs to be in range, so to me it would make perfect sense if this were true for line of sight as well.


This is one situation of LOS that's weird to me - so even though I can draw a straight line from my hex to the elite worm hexes, since it grazes the corner of a wall it is NOT LOS??
 
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John Drama
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magictom1 wrote:
Lathspell wrote:

This makes indeed sense with my real world example. But it doesn't for the gameplay situation I had in mind.



I'm think of Spellweavers "Icy Blast" top ability, which can target 7 hexes in a circle. Since line of sight is blocked by touching wallcorners, the two elites in the picture are out of sight. I'd like the worm no.1 to be the center of the effect area. If the attack was a cone, than the wolf in front of me would be hit as well. So it's at least something like a bomb, doing nothing until it reaches its target and then "explodes" so should also hit the elites. Thematically it makes no sense to me, that it doesn't. There is just no difference if I can see the hex or not.
Additionally theres this rule that says only one hex of an area effect needs to be in range, so to me it would make perfect sense if this were true for line of sight as well.


This is one situation of LOS that's weird to me - so even though I can draw a straight line from my hex to the elite worm hexes, since it grazes the corner of a wall it is NOT LOS??


This is how I understand the following from rulebook pg. 19:

Quote:
Ranged attacks are accompanied by a “Range Y” value, which means any enemy within Y hexes can be targeted by the attack as long as a straight line can be drawn from any corner of the attacker’s hex to any corner of the defender’s hex without touching any part of a wall (any hex containing mostly black space).
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Thomas A
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Yup I guess a corner certainly counts as a part of!
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JakobBGG wrote:
For example, it makes absolutely no sense to me that a melee monster will stand and not move closer to a hero that it can clearly see in the next room because an invisible hero that it cannot see is standing in the doorway. What??


Not all "invisibility" means see-through transparency. Think of Frodo's cloak in the LotR movies. He and Sam looked like a big old boulder:


JakobBGG wrote:
An ability named "icy blast" needs line of site to do damage in its area of effect? What??


The Area Effects in this game aren't passive. Each hex needs to be targeted, hence each hex follows the same targeting rules as a normal single-target attack. Yeah, it's different than most (read: DnD-inspired) fantasy, but so are the poison and wound effects and plenty of other things.

Rulebook wrote:
AREA EFFECTS
Some attacks and other abilities allow figures to target multiple hexes or multiple targets at the same time. In
these cases, the area of effect for the ability is shown on the ability card. Note that any rotational orientation
of the depicted diagram is valid. Also note that each target constitutes a separate attack, but all attacks
together make up a single attack action.


JakobBGG wrote:
A monster standing two hexes away from its focus will instead move 10 hexes in a completely different route to reach a hex where it can attack because an enemy ally is standing in an adjacent hex and there is no other way to attack the hero? What??


Monsters want to get to a hex they can actually make an attack from. Dontcha think it'd be kind of mean of a monster to just wait for his buddy to die so he can enter his buddy's space and attack the hero as well?
 
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Simon Skov
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magictom1 wrote:
This is one situation of LOS that's weird to me - so even though I can draw a straight line from my hex to the elite worm hexes, since it grazes the corner of a wall it is NOT LOS??

That seems perfectly alright to me. Why would you expect that character to have LoS to those elites? They're behind the corner! You might as well expect to have LoS to enemies behind a wall in another room.
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Arthur Janicek
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Lathspell wrote:

To put this in the real world: I look to a door in diagonal direction and throw a bomb at the guy I see right behind the door. So this guy I see will be hurt, but the guy who is hiding behind the wall right next to the guy I see is not, although the explosion would affect him, if I could see him?


Isn't it dangerous to ask questions like this on the internet in this day and age?...

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Thomas A
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nom_ wrote:
magictom1 wrote:
This is one situation of LOS that's weird to me - so even though I can draw a straight line from my hex to the elite worm hexes, since it grazes the corner of a wall it is NOT LOS??

That seems perfectly alright to me. Why would you expect that character to have LoS to those elites? They're behind the corner! You might as well expect to have LoS to enemies behind a wall in another room.


I was hoping they could see the worm's boot... or tentacle... whistle

But seriously, I figured as long as it didn't CROSS a border of a wall hex then it was ok. Since it JUST grazed the corner without going inside the hex, I figured they could JUST see the bad guys... barely...
 
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I think the Mindthief "Does it use currently active conditions like strengthen/muddle" question is a very good one to get official confirmation on.
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Troy Laurin
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Lathspell wrote:
Sometimes reading the threads of others or even the faq brings up questions I didn't have before. Here are some:

1. From the faq:
...
To put this in the real world: I look to a door in diagonal direction and throw a bomb at the guy I see right behind the door. So this guy I see will be hurt, but the guy who is hiding behind the wall right next to the guy I see is not, although the explosion would affect him, if I could see him?

It isn't a grenade.
Seriously, this is clearly and explicitly called out in the FAQ. I understand that you want it to work differently, and nobody is stopping you from playing it differently in the privacy of your own home. You are not going to get agreement that playing it differently is within the spirit of the rules by posting here.


Lathspell wrote:
2. Regarding monster focus:
2.1 Say a Charakter is completely sourrounded by walls/obstacles/invisible characters. So a melee monster can't get in position to attack him, so will not move a all (if there are no other visible charakters). He will not even come closer to maybe have an empty hex in future turns, because the charakter can't be a focus. Right?

It says it in the FAQ that you quoted. "If an enemy can't find a focus, it doesn't move or attack on its turn"

Lathspell wrote:
2.2 Say monster A is standing on a door. In the first room right next to this monster there is charakter 1, the second hex, that is next to the door is blocked by an obstacle. In the second room, two hexes away from Monster A there is monster B. No other charakters are on the board.

Because monster A and the obstacle are collectively blocking every hex from which monster B could possibly attack the character, monster B cannot find a focus, so does not move or attack.

Lathspell wrote:
3. Brute Card "Warding Strength", bottom effect: "On the next six sources of damage from attacks targeting you, gain Shield 1."

3.1 If I get attacked by an enemy who has "pierce", I have to move the counter on my card, but get full damage. Right?

Right.

Lathspell wrote:
3.2 Do I have to use effects like this? (Or for example Spellweavers "Crackling Air" top effect. While it generelly says you can choose not to perform parts of your ability card, I think using this is obligatory. Right?

You can choose not to gain the positive effect from the ability. Losing the charge is a negative effect and is obligatory.

Lathspell wrote:
4. Mindthief Submissive Affliction - bottom action:
From the faq:
Quote:
Any added effects from the monster's stat card are also applied to the attack, and the monster uses the monster attack modifier deck.

So if the stat card says pierce, the attack controlled by me has pierce as well. But what about the effects from ability cards? Assumed the monster already had it's turn and had performed an ability giving strengthen to it, than the attack I'm doing with the monster is strengthened as well?

Again, the answer you are after is in the FAQ text you quoted: Any added effects from the monster's stat card are also applied to the attack.
By implication, if it's on the monster's ability card, it is not applied to the attack.

I'm actually not completely sure about conditions, but I'd lean on the side of yes. In particular, I have been unable to force an enemy to attack in one game because that enemy was disarmed at the time. Unless there's a ruling in the other direction, I'd do the same with other conditions on the monster including strengthen and muddle.


magictom1 wrote:
This is one situation of LOS that's weird to me - so even though I can draw a straight line from my hex to the elite worm hexes, since it grazes the corner of a wall it is NOT LOS??

The LoS system in Gloomhaven is ridiculously lenient, allowing line of sight through a doorway in a surprisingly wide cone. Lamenting that it isn't even more lenient seems... weird.


Re: Invisibility... don't read too much into the name of the mechanic (or any flavour text in the game, for that matter), and focus on the rules instead. For example, not all moves involving jump mean the figure launches through the air. Consider that the cragheart has a "jump" movement ability called "Rock Tunnel".
 
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John Drama
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MrTroy wrote:
I understand that you want it to work differently, and nobody is stopping you from playing it differently in the privacy of your own home. You are not going to get agreement that playing it differently is within the spirit of the rules by posting here.


Thank you for your answers. But there is no need to make things up. Putting my words in a sense that is closer to the opposite of what I said, just to be able to give a cheeky answer, helps none of us.

MrTroy wrote:
It says it in the FAQ that you quoted.
....
Again, the answer you are after is in the FAQ text you quoted: Any added effects from the monster's stat card are also applied to the attack.


Altough the assumptions included in my questions sometimes use the words from the faq, these things are never the intention of my question. I thought this was obvious. But maybe my english is even worse than I thought.
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Lathspell wrote:
MrTroy wrote:
I understand that you want it to work differently, and nobody is stopping you from playing it differently in the privacy of your own home. You are not going to get agreement that playing it differently is within the spirit of the rules by posting here.


Thank you for your answers. But there is no need to make things up. Putting my words in a sense that is closer to the opposite of what I said, just to be able to give a cheeky answer, helps none of us.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to cause any offense and should probably have reviewed my response more before posting.

Probably the biggest confusion around AoE attacks is caused by using some kind of "explosion" analogy, so consider it a general "you" rather than a statement targeted at you. I can see that you were asking for clarification rather than suggesting how you wanted it to work... that hasn't always been the case.

Lathspell wrote:
MrTroy wrote:
It says it in the FAQ that you quoted.
....
Again, the answer you are after is in the FAQ text you quoted: Any added effects from the monster's stat card are also applied to the attack.


Altough the assumptions included in my questions sometimes use the words from the faq, these things are never the intention of my question. I thought this was obvious. But maybe my english is even worse than I thought.

Your english certainly seems quite good. Definitely better than my german, and that (used to be) a language I speak

I realise you are asking for clarification of the wording in each case. It's a good (and safe) rule of thumb that if the rulebook or FAQ omits something, then it doesn't happen. Here, it has specifically mentioned the stat card, which means that the ability card isn't used because it wasn't mentioned.

Yes, I'm violating my own rule there by also applying the monster's condition. I still don't know if that's correct by the official rules, but I find it enjoyable to play it that way, so I'm too scared to ask for clarification laugh
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John Drama
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MrTroy wrote:

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to cause any offense and should probably have reviewed my response more before posting.

It's okay.

MrTroy wrote:

Probably the biggest confusion around AoE attacks is caused by using some kind of "explosion" analogy


That's true. Unfortunatley that's how I understand area effects in general. Doesn't matter if its an explotion, an icy rain from above, or a poisonous cloud coming from the ground... to me an area effect normally affects an area, regardless of anything else.

But meanwhile I do get, that this is not how area effects are supposed to work in Gloomhaven. Area abilities are nothing else than X single attacks on different hexes determined by the drawing on the card. Looked at it that way it makes perfectly sense, that I need line of sight to every target.


MrTroy wrote:

Here, it has specifically mentioned the stat card, which means that the ability card isn't used because it wasn't mentioned.


That's true. I could have been much clearer with that question. I chose bad words. I do know, that I ignore the ability cards. The question was meant to be about the conditions that come from ability cards (or anything else). In the end you all got what I wanted to know, but it caused more confusion than would have been necessary.

MrTroy wrote:

Yes, I'm violating my own rule there by also applying the monster's condition. I still don't know if that's correct by the official rules, but I find it enjoyable to play it that way, so I'm too scared to ask for clarification laugh


I guess it isn't, altough it would make more sense to me. But as we learned above, that means nothing. laugh
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Tobias
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GAFBlizzard wrote:
I think the Mindthief "Does it use currently active conditions like strengthen/muddle" question is a very good one to get official confirmation on.


Since I haven't found an answer to this, I asked it in the FAQ: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25602141#25602141
 
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Wes Holland

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One thing that's fun about the Mindthief Possession ability is that he can use it while he's disarmed, as it isn't an Attack. Pretty sure the figure performing the Attack 6 wouldn't be able to do it if he were Disarmed, so I'd lean towards using the Conditions on the figure.
 
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