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Subject: Capital (regional/national) - occupied by enemy but besieged rss

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Theodore Balas

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Can a power collect income/manpower if an enemy occupies a capital but is besieged? Sorry for the lack of elaboration, will restate question later if it doesn't make sense!

Thanks in advance!
 
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Ken
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From 8.2.1.1 - "A major power may not collect taxes from a province or minor country if its capital city is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors. A major power collects no taxes at all (except for its minor free states) if its national capital city (or, in the case of Russia, if either Moscow or St. Petersburg) is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors."

So if the capital is besieged, the power collects income, no doubt about it.
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Oscar Oliver
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perfalbion wrote:
From 8.2.1.1 - "A major power may not collect taxes from a province or minor country if its capital city is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors. A major power collects no taxes at all (except for its minor free states) if its national capital city (or, in the case of Russia, if either Moscow or St. Petersburg) is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors."

So if the capital is besieged, the power collects income, no doubt about it.


Agreed. Keep the garrison, keep the income
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Theodore Balas

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Thank you for your replies. For some weird reason Ι just couldn't accept the fact that you control a province even if an enemy controls it's capital city...

Apart from the rulebook, the Glossary is pretty clear as well:

CONTROLLED PROVINCE--A currently unceded home province or province currently ceded to that major power unless that province's capital city is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors. This affects collection of taxation and manpower and the placement of cossacks, freikorps and feudal forces.
 
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Yannis S.
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Does the same apply for manpower?

According to rule
"8.2.2 MANPOWER COLLECTION: Each player totals the manpower due to
him from Economic Manipulation (this may be negative), from friendly
controlled home provinces and conquered minor countries only. Manpower
is not collected from ceded enemy provinces nor from a controlled province
or minor country whose capital city contains unbesieged enemy factors. The
presence of an unbesieged enemy in the national capital of a major power
does not affect the collection of manpower except for the capital's province."

For some reason the rules are not written in the same phrasing regarding income and manpower collection.

A capital contains unbesieged enemy factors when it is besieged by an enemy since the enemy is the besieger(thus he is not besieged) and he is present in the capital city (since he is besieging it).
Furthermore, in the next sentence, the rules states "presence" od unbesieged enemy in the capital, which again is a case when an enemy besieges a capital city (his troops are present in the capital).

Does this lead to the conclusion that manpower is not collected when a capital city is besieged?
 
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Ken
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If a capital is besieged, you pretty much treat it as being under the owner's control for all purposes. All of the rules are built around uncontested control to impact money and manpower collection.

The second sentence you're referring to is the real difference between collecting money and collecting manpower. If the national capital is held by unbesieged enemy forces, you collect no money at all from any home provinces. However, you still collect manpower on a province-by-province basis when the national capital is occupied - only the manpower from the province with the national capital is lost.
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Yannis S.
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Yes, the difference regarding the impact on manpower and income in a nation's capital is clear.
However, what is not clear is why the rules allow for some ambiguity regarding the phrasing.
In tax collection the rules are " if its capital city is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors"
while in manpower the rules use the verb "contains unbesieged enemy factors" and "presence of an unbesieged enemy".

If it were to use "occupied by unbesieged enemy factors" in both cases it would be perfectly clear however my understanding of "contains" and "presence" is not only occupation of the capital by the enemy but a capital siege as well!
 
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Ken
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rubieroker wrote:
However, what is not clear is why the rules allow for some ambiguity regarding the phrasing.
In tax collection the rules are " if its capital city is occupied by unbesieged enemy factors"
while in manpower the rules use the verb "contains unbesieged enemy factors" and "presence of an unbesieged enemy".


These are all functionally identical, so I don't know what the issue is. They all mean "there are enemy factors in the capital and they aren't beseiged."

Quote:
If it were to use "occupied by unbesieged enemy factors" in both cases it would be perfectly clear however my understanding of "contains" and "presence" is not only occupation of the capital by the enemy but a capital siege as well!


A city that is besieged by someone certainly doesn't "contain" their troops. Nor are their troops "present" within the city. The beseigers are outside of the wall attempting to establish a presence within the city so that they can be contained within.

The difference in phrasing doesn't result in a difference in meaning.
 
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