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Subject: House Rule: Battle Goal Drafting: Draw 3, Keep 2, Score 1 rss

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Jo Bartok
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1. Draw 3, Choose 2 instead of Draw 2 choose 1.
2. Keep the discard pile, so you always get fresh cards, until there are not enough to distribute. Shuffle the discard and distribute.

Reason: I found the personal goals to be very different in difficulty often omitting my goal (kill 5 is really hard for someone who needs to heal everyone).

Would you do this? Or would you rather say: if you draw your battle goal and THEN construct your scenario deck, better make sure you can reach your goal?
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Matt Mason
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
Interesting idea. I don't mind getting a hard goal that my hero cannot achieve. However, I have found that the same 2 or 3 goals keep popping up despite thorough shuffling.

If I were to try the "draw 3 / keep 2" variant, and my hero achieved both of the drawn goals; I think I would only allow the hero to reap the benefits of 1 of the 2 goals. Just to make sure that I don't start gaining checkmarks at an increased rate.
 
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mike heim
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
I would prefer,

(1) Consult the scenario setup by looking at the map only but not reading the text. (I'd consider it Intel gathered before entering, and I see more and more people doing this. Furthermore, if it wasn't supposed to be done then I'm sure Isaac would have put it in the rules.)
(2) Draw your two battle goal cards and choose 1.
(3) Then create your hand for the scenario.

The reason that #2 should come before #3 is so that you're more strategic in creating your deck. Currently, I go in blind with a "go to" deck. However, if I had a battle goal of "Loot X coins" then I'd stack my deck with more Loot cards.
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David Latimore
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
kzinti wrote:
I would prefer,

(1) Consult the scenario setup by looking at the map only but not reading the text. (I'd consider it Intel gathered before entering, and I see more and more people doing this. Furthermore, if it wasn't supposed to be done then I'm sure Isaac would have put it in the rules.)
(2) Draw your two battle goal cards and choose 1.
(3) Then create your hand for the scenario.

The reason that #2 should come before #3 is so that you're more strategic in creating your deck. Currently, I go in blind with a "go to" deck. However, if I had a battle goal of "Loot X coins" then I'd stack my deck with more Loot cards.


You're already supposed to set up the map, populate the first room, and read the intro text and scenario goal and THEN choose battle goals. And then make your hand and choose what items you are equipping.
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
alphasquid wrote:
kzinti wrote:
I would prefer,

(1) Consult the scenario setup by looking at the map only but not reading the text. (I'd consider it Intel gathered before entering, and I see more and more people doing this. Furthermore, if it wasn't supposed to be done then I'm sure Isaac would have put it in the rules.)
(2) Draw your two battle goal cards and choose 1.
(3) Then create your hand for the scenario.

The reason that #2 should come before #3 is so that you're more strategic in creating your deck. Currently, I go in blind with a "go to" deck. However, if I had a battle goal of "Loot X coins" then I'd stack my deck with more Loot cards.


You're already supposed to set up the map, populate the first room, and read the intro text and scenario goal and THEN choose battle goals. And then make your hand and choose what items you are equipping.


Seems some people are missing that. its not cheating to know what monsters are in the scenario, look at their stat sheets and then build your deck. The challenge as a solo player is not seeing the entire map when setting up.
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Benjamin Gentzel
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
I would shy away from draw 3 keep 2. This would let people rocket through the perks sometimes. Or someone might get screwed over by getting virtually no choice since two of them could be opposites:

(Battle goal 'spoilers'):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Loot no money tokens with loot 5 or more money tokens.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Take only short rests or take only long rests.


In those cases, you pick which of the two you would want, but basically have to take the third card.

Keeping the discard pile discarded would be fine. I'd have no personal issues with that other than eliminating some of the wondering "Does X have that goal?" since you would remember what's already been discarded.

The only sort of variant I'd consider is allowing a player to reveal a battle goal that is impossible and redraw for a new choice. I had the experience:

(Battle goal 'spoilers'):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Have a trap activate on your turn was a choice, but I looked and there were no traps at all in the scenario. It could have been technically possible if I begged our tinkerer to take a plant a trap card just so I could walk on it, but if I didn't have a Tinkerer on the team, it would have been to my knowledge literally impossible.


Essentially I had no option but to take the other battle goal. I would house-rule that in that case, I could redraw a new option.
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mike heim
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
Thanks for the clarification.

Instead of draw 3 and keep two, I'd trim it down to draw 2 and use both of them. However, at the end of the scenario you can only credit one of them if both were completed.

It's your game though. Some people might not like it, but it seems like a fun house rule that won't break the system. If your group is into that, go for it!
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Byron Campbell
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
Some of the battle goals seem disproportionate to their reward, at least for my specific party. Kill an undamaged enemy in 1 hit is nearly impossible unless you have a way to generate a ton of damage or an auto-kill card. Be the first player to kill an enemy, on the other hand, is very easy.

I wouldn't change the rules, but I do sometimes end up with two cards I know I can't complete.
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
This thread made me realize there is no explicit rule to shuffle the Battle Goal deck.

Did I miss it somewhere? The only related text is page 33 with "No matter if they were completed or not, all battle goals are returned to the battle goal deck at the end of the scenario." So technically someone could "return" a battle goal to the bottom of the deck.

This probably isn't the intent though.
 
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
I get all monster cards out for people to see as well as set to one side the number of obstacles, traps, hazardous terrain etc in the scenario as well as chests as described in the set up so people know what they might encounter. I have placed post-it notes over all addition rooms so when we set up we don't know what is where, but we know what we'll face roughly speaking.
 
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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
I think we are going to try draw 3 keep two, score one completed of the two.
And: i think there are 20, so with 4 players you would distribute 12, next scenario you would distribute the 8 left over, then shuffle the rest and distribute 4 more, etc, etc... that way you should not by bad luck see the same once too often and you should be able to conplete at least one (you can only score one)
 
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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
The benefit of going with vanilla rules is:
If people really aim for perks (cause all but the rolling once are OP) then they maybe play a damage tinkerer in some scenario if they need kills.

Is that good? Bad?
 
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Eric Bridge
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
I took the "Loot a Treasure tile" one recently, as all 8-9 scenarios we had thus played had at least 1 treasure tile in them.

We got all the way to the last room, and won, and then I realized that the scenario had no treasure tiles in it!

Isn't this a case where you should be allowed to just ask the question "Are there any treasure tiles in this scenario"? Seems unfair to have a goal that is literally impossible to achieve
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
ebridge wrote:
I took the "Loot a Treasure tile" one recently, as all 8-9 scenarios we had thus played had at least 1 treasure tile in them.

We got all the way to the last room, and won, and then I realized that the scenario had no treasure tiles in it!

Isn't this a case where you should be allowed to just ask the question "Are there any treasure tiles in this scenario"? Seems unfair to have a goal that is literally impossible to achieve


I had a similar situation with that BG, we finished the scenario before the room containing the only treasure tile was revealed...
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David Latimore
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
ebridge wrote:
I took the "Loot a Treasure tile" one recently, as all 8-9 scenarios we had thus played had at least 1 treasure tile in them.

We got all the way to the last room, and won, and then I realized that the scenario had no treasure tiles in it!

Isn't this a case where you should be allowed to just ask the question "Are there any treasure tiles in this scenario"? Seems unfair to have a goal that is literally impossible to achieve


So, in the scenario book for each scenario there is a section that says what tiles you will need. Trap tiles and treasure tiles are included. As the game owner I intend to let my party know before drawing battle goals if there are treasure tiles and/or trap tiles in the scenario or not, so they don't take an impossible battle goal.
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
ebridge wrote:
I took the "Loot a Treasure tile" one recently, as all 8-9 scenarios we had thus played had at least 1 treasure tile in them.

We got all the way to the last room, and won, and then I realized that the scenario had no treasure tiles in it!

Isn't this a case where you should be allowed to just ask the question "Are there any treasure tiles in this scenario"? Seems unfair to have a goal that is literally impossible to achieve


You're supposed to know "whats in the dungeon" - Which would include all the things on the bottom of the scenario - the monsters, the trap, the obstacles, the terrain, and the chests. The map layout (and presumably the doors since theyre not on the list) are placed at the beginning.

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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
stevelabny wrote:
ebridge wrote:
I took the "Loot a Treasure tile" one recently, as all 8-9 scenarios we had thus played had at least 1 treasure tile in them.

We got all the way to the last room, and won, and then I realized that the scenario had no treasure tiles in it!

Isn't this a case where you should be allowed to just ask the question "Are there any treasure tiles in this scenario"? Seems unfair to have a goal that is literally impossible to achieve


You're supposed to know "whats in the dungeon" - Which would include all the things on the bottom of the scenario - the monsters, the trap, the obstacles, the terrain, and the chests. The map layout (and presumably the doors since theyre not on the list) are placed at the beginning.



yeah but its more fun when you dont?
then just get two goals of 3 and score 1?
 
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
ionas wrote:

yeah but its more fun when you dont?
then just get two goals of 3 and score 1?


I don't like the idea of drawing 3.

The battle goals are SUPPOSED to put you in situations where you play suboptimally or risk failure to fulfill your goal. With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission. With 3 choices you would just about always complete them.
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
stevelabny wrote:
With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission.


Or at least one that pushes you to play slightly differently than what you're used to in order to achieve your goal.

I completely agree with everything you said.
 
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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
stevelabny wrote:
ionas wrote:

yeah but its more fun when you dont?
then just get two goals of 3 and score 1?


I don't like the idea of drawing 3.

The battle goals are SUPPOSED to put you in situations where you play suboptimally or risk failure to fulfill your goal. With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission. With 3 choices you would just about always complete them.


yeah I do like that argument! and that's why I am torn.
however it means that you have to make your party understand that you will maybe fail the scenario if you cannot get your personal goal ... e.g. say you have to kill 5 and you are the healer, suddenly you waste your abilities to get 5 kills and only then...heal...
 
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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
KBusterG wrote:
stevelabny wrote:
With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission.


Or at least one that pushes you to play slightly differently than what you're used to in order to achieve your goal.

I completely agree with everything you said.


That's the problem "slightly"... now there are not many battle goals that work with the tinkerer or with tanks and "slightly"
 
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
ionas wrote:
stevelabny wrote:
ionas wrote:

yeah but its more fun when you dont?
then just get two goals of 3 and score 1?


I don't like the idea of drawing 3.

The battle goals are SUPPOSED to put you in situations where you play suboptimally or risk failure to fulfill your goal. With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission. With 3 choices you would just about always complete them.


yeah I do like that argument! and that's why I am torn.
however it means that you have to make your party understand that you will maybe fail the scenario if you cannot get your personal goal ... e.g. say you have to kill 5 and you are the healer, suddenly you waste your abilities to get 5 kills and only then...heal...


That's why they are so interesting and fun. You have this tension between trying to achieve two things that are at least somewhat at odds with each other. Now, rather than just always doing the best thing to win the scenario, you have to make interesting choices and balance different objectives.

Also, they aren't equal objectives. You only get the battle goal rewards if you win. If you tank the scenario because you focused too much on the battle goal, then that's a choice you made, and you have to live with it.

Games without tough choices are far less interesting/fun.
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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
Choices are all right with me, but I fear that some classes have a lot more opportunities regarding battle goals than others. E.g. kill this and kill that ... and you can maybe pull it off but cannot heal at all (or tank, muddle, disable, etc)

E.g. some can contribute a lot to the scenario and still have a pretty good chance at winning scenarios almost always... like contributing 95%. Other classes have issues with a lot of battle goals.
 
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
ionas wrote:
KBusterG wrote:
stevelabny wrote:
With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission.


Or at least one that pushes you to play slightly differently than what you're used to in order to achieve your goal.

I completely agree with everything you said.


That's the problem "slightly"... now there are not many battle goals that work with the tinkerer or with tanks and "slightly"


It sounds like you want to be rewarded for doing something you'd do anyway. Doesn't sound fun to me.
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Jo Bartok
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Re: HR Battle Goals:
KBusterG wrote:
ionas wrote:
KBusterG wrote:
stevelabny wrote:
With 2 choices, you will often get one that lines up pretty well with you character or the mission.


Or at least one that pushes you to play slightly differently than what you're used to in order to achieve your goal.

I completely agree with everything you said.


That's the problem "slightly"... now there are not many battle goals that work with the tinkerer or with tanks and "slightly"


It sounds like you want to be rewarded for doing something you'd do anyway. Doesn't sound fun to me.


I totally get you. The problem again is that some classes get that (anyway) while others don't pretty much. I am all for choices. Get the chest vs kill the boss. Loot the stuff vs help your comrades. But as I said, some seem to mostly get battle goals "anyway" while others can almost never get most of the battle goals unless they totally omit the strongest part to contribute to the party.

E.g. next time I will draw kill only PQs I will build the tinkerer deck focussed on damage - I will still deal a lot less than say a Scoundrel.
 
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