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Subject: The evangelical disconnect with the realities of discrimination rss

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Jon Badolato
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Evangelicals see themselves as facing more discrimination than Muslims !

http://blog.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/new-poll-reveals...

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Marco Schaub
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This is interesting. I wonder why this is...

"Muslims are victims of 22 percent of religiously motivated hate crimes in the U.S., compared to 13.6 percent of religiously motivated hate crimes affecting all Christian denominations combined. [...] Muslims are estimated to make up less than 1 percent of the American population, compared to Christians’ 70 percent.”
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Rich Keiser
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jonb wrote:
Evangelicals see themselves as facing more discrimination than Muslims !

http://blog.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/new-poll-reveals...



Pretty much in line with the rest of the delusional thinking.

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J.D. Hall
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Interesting quote from the article's author in the text:

Quote:
As I wrote then: “If I were to write a synopsis about the VVS, it would be: ‘Highly privileged majority members of society gather to debate whether they’re oppressed due to their legally limited power to oppress other people.’”


As someone who grew up in the Protestant tradition, persecution is a big part of the Evangelical wing. They self-identify with the trials of the earliest Christians, who indeed faced torture and death at the hands of the Romans, and believe the marshmallow-tipped darts gently tossed in their direction put them in the same league as those who were thrown to the lions.

They conveniently ignore the requirements of humility, compassion, and grace, in order to practice their loudly proclaimed self-righteous condemnation of sinners. And though they will meekly admit that all are sinners, in private they almost boast that they are the righteous, they are without sin.

Bah.
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Ken
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PRRI doesn't appear to publish their methodology for any of their surveys. That's pretty bad form and makes it impossible to actually judge the quality of the work that went into it. So while it's entirely possible that this is correct, it's also possible that it's not.

I'd encourage folks to ignore a poll that doesn't make its methodology visible. That makes it far too easy to monkey with the results.
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emptyset wrote:
This is interesting. I wonder why this is...

"Muslims are victims of 22 percent of religiously motivated hate crimes in the U.S., compared to 13.6 percent of religiously motivated hate crimes affecting all Christian denominations combined. [...] Muslims are estimated to make up less than 1 percent of the American population, compared to Christians’ 70 percent.”


And of course, that 22% number doesn't count all the hate crimes committed against Sikhs, who get targeted because the ignorant fucks out looking to commit anti-Muslim hate crimes think that turban=Muslim.
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Mc Jarvis
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seems pretty obvious why they think they are persecuted more:

Mat 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.


when the fact that you are persecuted is a part of the bible(which is god's word) actual statistics don't hold much water. besides, they know from personal experience they are strongly discriminated against because they have to endure awkward silence every time they share anecdotes of doing things with their church group.
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Damian
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White evangelicals. Which is an important distinction because, as you know there is a war on the white race.
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Claire Anderson
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When you're used to having privilege, equality feels like oppression.
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Walt
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‘Highly privileged majority members of society gather to debate whether they’re oppressed due to their legally limited power to oppress other people.’

But I don't think losing the right to be assholes is the whole story, though it does kind of resonate with the whole BGG moderation thing.

Evangelical America is deeply conservative, not in a political way but in that they don't want their lives to change. At all. They want to stay in their communities, keep working at the typewriter factory, and have some class they can look down on.

They're deeply disturbed by immigrants coming in, ignoring what they think the social order is, and being more successful than they are. (Of course, immigrants have always done this. America isn't called the Land of Opportunity for nothing.)
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Mac Mcleod
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perfalbion wrote:
PRRI doesn't appear to publish their methodology for any of their surveys. That's pretty bad form and makes it impossible to actually judge the quality of the work that went into it. So while it's entirely possible that this is correct, it's also possible that it's not.

I'd encourage folks to ignore a poll that doesn't make its methodology visible. That makes it far too easy to monkey with the results.


Not the same poll but here is their methodology for another poll.

http://prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics-and-LGB...

It still doesn't mean they used good methodology for the above poll but shows what kind of methodology they use for some polls.
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Ken
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maxo-texas wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
PRRI doesn't appear to publish their methodology for any of their surveys. That's pretty bad form and makes it impossible to actually judge the quality of the work that went into it. So while it's entirely possible that this is correct, it's also possible that it's not.

I'd encourage folks to ignore a poll that doesn't make its methodology visible. That makes it far too easy to monkey with the results.


Not the same poll but here is their methodology for another poll.

http://prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics-and-LGB...

It still doesn't mean they used good methodology for the above poll but shows what kind of methodology they use for some polls.


That's partly there. They don't include the questions asked or the actual breakdown of responses. When you're only sampling around 1,000 people (which looks to be their typical sample size), their sample of those identifying as evangelicals could be very small. Which is probably why they don't provide that data.
 
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"as those who were thrown to the lions. ", we could ask them to vote if they would like it to be legal again to throw them to the lions. If yes then perhaps we could get some of the Alpha chumps favorite talk show to run with the concept?

if they want to feel persecuted by society at large who are we to deny them - noblese oblige and all that!
 
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Rich Keiser
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Clairebot wrote:
When you're used to having privilege, equality feels like oppression.


If you made that up, I will reference you every time I say that.

If you didn't, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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Claire Anderson
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darthhugo wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
When you're used to having privilege, equality feels like oppression.


If you made that up, I will reference you every time I say that.

If you didn't, thanks for bringing it to my attention.


lol I was definitely not the first to say it. It's repeated a lot in Social justice circles. Apparently it's from "Unknown".
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Vic Lineal
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Clairebot wrote:


lol I was definitely not the first to say it. It's repeated a lot in Social justice circles. Apparently it's from "Unknown".


Damn commies expropriating quotes. Get a job, cut your hair and respect IP laws, you pinko!!!
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David Dearlove
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Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
‘Highly privileged majority members of society gather to debate whether they’re oppressed due to their legally limited power to oppress other people.’

But I don't think losing the right to be assholes is the whole story, though it does kind of resonate with the whole BGG moderation thing.

Evangelical America is deeply conservative, not in a political way but in that they don't want their lives to change. At all. They want to stay in their communities, keep working at the typewriter factory, and have some class they can look down on.

They're deeply disturbed by immigrants coming in, ignoring what they think the social order is, and being more successful than they are. (Of course, immigrants have always done this. America isn't called the Land of Opportunity for nothing.)

Since History -- the Past -- is prologue to the Future, it's necessary to gain some insight about how Evangelicals of the Religious Right originated.


> Excerpt from the book review by Curtis Wilkie entitled "How The Baptists Won The Soul of Dixie" about the book "SOUTHERN CROSS: The Beginnings of the Bible Belt" by Christine Leigh Heyrman (Knopf, 336 pages)




"Southern Cross" tells how the Baptists -- and to a lesser extent their evangelical cousins, the Methodists -- won supremacy in Dixie.....

Christine Leigh Heyrman, a history professor at the University of Delaware, has conducted some diligent research, and while she concentrates on a period 200 years ago, she provides a study of the early forces that swelled into the influential behemoth known as the "Religious Right" by the eve of the 21st century.

These Protestant fundamentalists, believing that spiritual rebirth is essential to salvation, were clever at reading political winds from the time they set foot in the South. While ties to England cost the Episcopal Church loyalty at the time of the Revolution, and the Presbyterian Church "fell far behind in the competition for new members" because of its insistence that ministers obtain a classical education, Heyrman writes that the "Baptists and Methodists refashioned their faiths to win greater acceptance among whites."

When the Baptists and Methodists first sought to proselytize the South, they were represented by itinerant circuit-riding pastors and boy preachers, known as "Young Gifts," bearing dire messages of dancing in Hell "in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone." They frowned on such worldly pleasures as "horse races and taverns, barbecues and balls," and their charismatic services not only attracted many black worshippers but also allowed women to "prophesy, pray and exhort at mixed gatherings."

It did not fit into a Southern society where the white man was the principal figure. The evangelical zealots were mocked by large portions of the population, and sometimes they were set upon physically. Clearly, adjustments were necessary.



Christine Leigh Heyrman

"All preachers shared the concern that attacks on slavery would alienate both members and prospective converts," Heyrman writes, and church leaders also feared that practices that empowered women had the effect of antagonizing men.

To convert slaveholders as well as "humbler folk," she says, the churches drastically altered "many earlier evangelical teachings and practices concerning the proper roles of men and women, old and young, white and black."

The evangelicals "shaped their behavior to the reigning norms of white southern manhood," she writes. Those who once put church over the family began tailoring their teachings to assert the authority of male heads of households and masters of slaves.

By the early 1800s, Heyrman writes, the evangelical churches that had held out hope "to the poor, the young, the female, the black... had retreated from those promises of liberation and invested their energies in upholding the equality and honor of all white men."

Ministers even adopted macho poses. A new breed of male evangelicals began to claim "red-blooded impulses" in order to connect with their target audience, Heyrman says. "The youthful dissipations to which the clergy confessed ran the predictable gamut of male passions -- swearing and gambling, dancing and drinking, fighting and hunting."

Plantation patriarchs joined the Baptist and Methodist flocks. Women were silenced, and blacks took their religious passions to their own segregated churches.

The ultimate triumph of the evangelicals in the South, Heyrman concludes, "lay in appealing to those who confined the devil to hell, esteemed maturity more than youth, put family before religious fellowship, upheld the superiority of white over black and of men over women, and prized their honor above all else."

The irony is not lost on Heyrman, who writes that the changing themes "transformed the early Baptist and Methodist movements into the evangelical culture that later generations of Americans would identify as epitomizing 'Family Values.'"

__________________________________________________



Baptists living in the antebellum South eventually formed their own denomination as the result of a schism over slavery. That breakaway began in 1845 when the then National Baptist Convention refused to ordain the son of a slave-holding southern plantation owner because of the inherant hypocrisy of sending a missionary overseas to witness and proselytize to internationals whose very own relatives might well be held in captivity by slave holders just like that missionary's own slave-holding father -- if not that missionary's slave-holding father himself.


> Excerpt from the May 27, 2014 Politico magazine feature story by Randall Balmer entitled:

The Real Origins of the Religious Right
They’ll tell you it was abortion. Sorry, the historical record’s clear: It was segregation.



One of the most durable myths in recent history is that the Religious Right, the coalition of conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists, emerged as a political movement in response to the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling legalizing abortion. The tale goes something like this: Evangelicals, who had been politically quiescent for decades, were so morally outraged by Roe that they resolved to organize in order to overturn it.

This myth of origins is oft repeated by the movement’s leaders. In his 2005 book, Jerry Falwell, the firebrand fundamentalist preacher, recounts his distress upon reading about the ruling in the Jan. 23, 1973, edition of the Lynchburg News: “I sat there staring at the Roe v. Wade story,” Falwell writes, “growing more and more fearful of the consequences of the Supreme Court’s act and wondering why so few voices had been raised against it.” Evangelicals, he decided, needed to organize.

Some of these anti-Roe crusaders even went so far as to call themselves “new abolitionists,” invoking their antebellum predecessors who had fought to eradicate slavery.

But the abortion myth quickly collapses under historical scrutiny. In fact, it wasn’t until 1979 —— a full six years after Roe —— that evangelical leaders, at the behest of conservative activist Paul Weyrich, seized on abortion not for moral reasons, but as a rallying-cry to deny President Jimmy Carter a second term. Why?

Because the anti-abortion crusade was more palatable than the Religious Right’s real motive: protecting segregated schools. So much for the "new abolitionism."

Today, evangelicals make up the backbone of the pro-life movement, but it hasn’t always been so. Both before and for several years after Roe, evangelicals were overwhelmingly indifferent to the subject, which they considered a “Catholic issue.” In 1968, for instance, a symposium sponsored by the Christian Medical Society and Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, refused to characterize abortion as sinful, citing “individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility” as justifications for ending a pregnancy.

In 1971, delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis, Missouri, passed a resolution encouraging Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.” The convention, hardly a redoubt of liberal values, reaffirmed that position in 1974, one year after Roe v. Wade, and again in 1976.

When the Roe decision was handed down, W. A. Criswell, the Southern Baptist Convention’s former president and pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas —— also one of the most famous fundamentalists of the 20th century —— was pleased: “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person,” he said, “and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”



Rev. W.A. Criswell

Points of Information from Wikipedia: Rev. W.A. Criswell's preaching also reflected his culture as societal attitudes evolved on the issue of racial integration. While he never spoke in support of segregation from the pulpit, Criswell was at first privately critical of the Supreme Court's decision in Brown v. Board of Education and of federal intervention against de jure southern segregation. In 1953, he made a Curse of Ham address denouncing forced integration to a South Carolina evangelism conference, and a day later to the South Carolina legislature. (His "Curse of Ham" speech also entailed that God ordained for the races to be remain separate and that African Americans, the cursed descendants of Ham, Noah's son, should not expect to be treated with the same rights as whites.) Taken aback by negative reactions and distorted accounts of his remarks in the press, Criswell did not publicly address the issue again for over a decade, claiming he was "a pastor, not a politician." However, upon his 1968 election as president of the Southern Baptist Convention and the Southern Baptist Convention's endorsement of racial equality and desegregation, Criswell announced to the press, "Every Southern Baptist in the land should support the spirit of that statement. We Southern Baptists have definitely turned away from racism, from segregation, from anything and everything that speaks of a separation of people in the body of Christ."

Criswell's first sermon after his election as Southern Baptist Convention president in 1968 was titled "The Church of the Open Door," emphasizing that his church already had many non-white members and was open to all regardless of race. He asserted publicly, "I don't think that segregation could have been or was at any time intelligently, seriously supported by the Bible."

In 1987, however, when asked by a British documentarian why Dallas Southern Baptist Churches hadn't mainstreamed any English-speaking Hispanic Baptists into their all-white churches, Criswell responded, "Well, they have their churches and we have ours." Criswell's candor can be attributed to his presumption that the documentary being filmed would only be shown in England. When the documentary aired on PBS in 1987, Criswell was unable to satisfactory reconcile his own filmed words during a live post-show discussion hour.]

Although a few evangelical voices, including Christianity Today magazine, mildly criticized the ruling, the overwhelming response was silence, even approval. Baptists, in particular, applauded the decision as an appropriate articulation of the division between church and state, between personal morality and state regulation of individual behavior. “Religious liberty, human equality and justice are advanced by the Supreme Court abortion decision,” wrote W. Barry Garrett of Baptist Press.

So what then were the real origins of the Religious Right?

It turns out that the movement can trace its political roots back to a court ruling, but not Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court's 1973 decision legalizing abortion.

In May 1969, a group of African-American parents in Holmes County, Mississippi, sued the Treasury Department to prevent three new whites-only K-12 (Kindergarten through 12th grade) private academies from securing full tax-exempt status, arguing that their discriminatory policies prevented them from being considered “charitable” institutions. The schools had been founded in the mid-1960s in response to the desegregation of public schools set in motion by the Brown vs. the Board of Education decision of 1954. In 1969, the first year of desegregation, the number of white students enrolled in public schools in Holmes County dropped from 771 to 28; the following year, that number fell to zero.

In the Green vs. Kennedy case (David Kennedy was Secretary of the Treasury at the time), decided in January 1970, the plaintiffs won a preliminary injunction, which denied the “segregation academies” tax-exempt status until further review. In the meantime, the government was solidifying its position on such schools.

Later that year, President Richard Nixon ordered the Internal Revenue Service to enact a new policy denying tax exemptions to all segregated schools in the United States. Under the provisions of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which forbade racial segregation and discrimination, discriminatory schools were not —— by definition —— “charitable” educational organizations, and therefore they had no claims to tax-exempt status; similarly, donations to such organizations would no longer qualify as tax-deductible contributions.

_________________________________________


The story continues at: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-rig...


In June 1998, the Southern Baptists launched a "Wives, Submit To Your Husbands" campaign that was carried out in the most offputtingly misogynistic and heavy-handed manner imaginable. Only, their #1 leader at the time, Rev. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and a confirmed Republican, truly showed how backward they were in the following exchange between him and Larry King and Patricia Ireland, president of the National Organization of Women, on the Friday, June 12, 1998 edition of CNN's "Larry King Live Show":







Patricia Ireland of the National Organization for Women: "Rev. Mohler, how do you deal with the subsequent passage in the Book of Ephesians that slaves should submit to their masters? Is that not something that is old-fashioned or out of touch with Christianity? It's right there in the same Book of Ephesians along with that other wives,-submit-to-your-husbands passage [that your denomination is overly emphasizing]."




Rev. Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Convention: "I'm not scared off by that passage. It's in the Word of God which I believe is God's Perfect Treasure of Truth in that text."




Larry King: "So God wanted slaves to comply with their masters?"

Rev. Albert Mohler: "Well, that text demonstrates that the apostle Paul by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, 'Slaves, if you want to model what a Christian looks like, you graciously submit (to your masters) and thereby gain moral authority.'"

Larry King: "Do you agree with that?"

Rev. Albert Mohler: "Well, I have to agree with that. It's the Word of God. That is not an endorsement of slavery as an institution."

Larry King: "So if a foreign power took over this country, are you saying that you would graciously submit to its leadership?"




Rev. Albert Mohler: "Uhhh, the Bible tells us that we are graciously to submit to the leaders that He (God) puts in authority. Now, again, it's a distortion to claim that the Bible endorses slavery. It does no such thing. But it does say that if you are a slave, there is a way to behave. And let me just point out that slavery in America did not end by a revolt by the slaves but by the moral authority that the slaves gained as America came to see slavery as a condemned sin."

Larry King: "You don't condemn those slaves who ran away from the masters, do you?"




Patricia Ireland of the National Organization for Women: "What about the [runaway] slave Harriet Tubbman who ran away and formed the Underground Railroad as an escape route for runaway slaves?"

Rev. Albert Mohler: "Well, I want to look at this text seriously and it says, 'Submit to the master.'"




Larry King: "So those slaves who ran away from their masters were nuts???"

Rev. Albert Mohler: "I really don't see any loophole there (allowing slaves to not submit to their masters) as much as popular culture might otherwise want to see one."


____________________________________________



In essence, Rev. Mohler's Biblical support of slavery clicks with the attitude and stance of the original antebellum Southern Baptists' support of slavery in the Old South. And to think that Mohler made those outrageous remarks only three years after the Southern Baptist Convention had voted in June 1995 to apologize for its having as an institution been one of the chief advocates for slavery and the oppressive Jim Crow Laws in the South and for having opposed Civil Rights for African-Americans.



 
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Andy Beaton
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Clairebot wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
When you're used to having privilege, equality feels like oppression.


If you made that up, I will reference you every time I say that.

If you didn't, thanks for bringing it to my attention.


lol I was definitely not the first to say it. It's repeated a lot in Social justice circles. Apparently it's from "Unknown".


It was me. You have to send me $1 every time you repeat it. I can't show you any documentation, but it was totally me.
 
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.


I did a quick search, "Modern Scholarship" seems to be one book from 2013.
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windsagio wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.


I did a quick search, "Modern Scholarship" seems to be one book from 2013.


I've got to say, the bizarre and outlandish methods used to kill many of the early martyrs really stretched credibility for me. And it isn't like the chroniclers of the lives of the martyrs had good fact-checking resources.
 
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aiabx wrote:
windsagio wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.


I did a quick search, "Modern Scholarship" seems to be one book from 2013.


I've got to say, the bizarre and outlandish methods used to kill many of the early martyrs really stretched credibility for me. And it isn't like the chroniclers of the lives of the martyrs had good fact-checking resources.


There looks to be some consensus (even in the church) that the details of individual martyrdoms are mythologized, not so much consensus that there weren't attempts to violently suppress the church.
 
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windsagio wrote:
aiabx wrote:
windsagio wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.


I did a quick search, "Modern Scholarship" seems to be one book from 2013.


I've got to say, the bizarre and outlandish methods used to kill many of the early martyrs really stretched credibility for me. And it isn't like the chroniclers of the lives of the martyrs had good fact-checking resources.


There looks to be some consensus (even in the church) that the details of individual martyrdoms are mythologized, not so much consensus that there weren't attempts to violently suppress the church.


Yet another example of modern secularists being nothing but historical revisionists in attempt to smear the truth contained in biblical text.
 
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sao123 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
aiabx wrote:
windsagio wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.


I did a quick search, "Modern Scholarship" seems to be one book from 2013.


I've got to say, the bizarre and outlandish methods used to kill many of the early martyrs really stretched credibility for me. And it isn't like the chroniclers of the lives of the martyrs had good fact-checking resources.


There looks to be some consensus (even in the church) that the details of individual martyrdoms are mythologized, not so much consensus that there weren't attempts to violently suppress the church.


Yet another example of modern secularists being nothing but historical revisionists in attempt to smear the truth contained in biblical text.


Swing and a miss - as far as I can tell there are only two martyrdoms recounted in Biblical text, everything else is the early Christian church telling stories about itself, and could very well be mythologized.
 
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sao123 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
aiabx wrote:
windsagio wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Modern scholarship thinks most of the early Christian martyrs were made up to enthasize the persecution narrative. So they've always been at it.


I did a quick search, "Modern Scholarship" seems to be one book from 2013.


I've got to say, the bizarre and outlandish methods used to kill many of the early martyrs really stretched credibility for me. And it isn't like the chroniclers of the lives of the martyrs had good fact-checking resources.


There looks to be some consensus (even in the church) that the details of individual martyrdoms are mythologized, not so much consensus that there weren't attempts to violently suppress the church.


Yet another example of modern secularists being nothing but historical revisionists in attempt to smear the truth contained in biblical text.


W... what?

Edit: To be clear "mythologized" just refers to the details being built up and elaborated on over the basic fact that many of those people were actually martyred.

 
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