Greg Lorrimer
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The boys love this game.

I'm not sure this is the game for me for gamer satisfaction, but I'm delighted at how the boys have taken to it, 7 & 10.

Having said that, two of my gurus seem to like it Chris Farrell and Elijah Lau who reviewed it a decade ago.

Perhaps some dads out there might be looking for something a little blood thirsty for their young tikes.

No actual blood is spilled.
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That's some fine gender essentialism there...
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I don't subscribe to the new dogma of gender equality, nor even the word 'gender'. But if you wish to discuss it, then there's a group for that.
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itsastickup wrote:

I don't subscribe to the new dogma of gender equality, nor even the word 'gender'. But if you wish to discuss it, then there's a group for that.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you don't believe in gender, then why specify that your kids being boys has an effect on whether they like it? And do you mean "gender equivalency" rather than "equality"?

Anyways, just as an FYI, this forum is usually used for people asking for recommendations from others, not giving unsolicited recommendations. I think it's to prevent spam.
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Greg Lorrimer
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Mashpotassium wrote:
itsastickup wrote:

I don't subscribe to the new dogma of gender equality, nor even the word 'gender'. But if you wish to discuss it, then there's a group for that.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you don't believe in gender, then why specify that your kids being boys has an effect on whether they like it? And do you mean "gender equivalency" rather than "equality"?


Gender is an invented term rich with nuance; and that I don't bother myself with.

Meanwhile, I didn't play with girls but rather boys, and 'tikes' to my mind isn't sex specific. I wasn't in any way introducing a sex/gender debate or taking any position on it, nor did my post imply it. Rather it was inferred by someone evidently making presumptions and looking for trouble.

Quote:
Anyways, just as an FYI, this forum is usually used for people asking for recommendations from others, not giving unsolicited recommendations. I think it's to prevent spam.


I wasn't aware of such a rule. In any case, my post evidently isn't spam.
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As a father of three young boys (oldest is 10) I appreciate the recommendation. Unsure why people are derailing this into a discussion on gender...
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itsastickup wrote:

Gender is an invented term rich with nuance; and that I don't bother myself with.

Human language is all invented, by humans. The use of gender to refer to male or female dates back to the 15th century. It became more common in the 20th century when the word "sex", previously used for the same purpose, became too erotically charged.

itsastickup wrote:
Meanwhile, I didn't play with girls but rather boys, and 'tikes' to my mind isn't sex specific. I wasn't in any way introducing a sex/gender debate or taking any position on it, nor did my post imply it. Rather it was inferred by someone evidently making presumptions and looking for trouble.

You did introduce a gender debate when you said "at least for boys" in your title, suggesting that for some reasons you think it possible that girls might not like a game boys would like. (I may be more sensitive to this suggestion because I began my gaming life as a wargamer, and it was my mom who taught me to play wargames, beating me repeatedly!)

When I recommend games I don't say: "It's a great game, at least for males" or "It's a great game, at least for white people," I'll just say "it's a great game." Your extra "at least for boys" seems unnecessary to me, and I think to others. It smacks of an ideological trojan horse stuck into an otherwise innocuous recommendation.

As to the game itself, you seem to be a bit of an outlier. The game has a 5.9 rating and is out of print. Still, different strokes for different folks.

EDIT: If I was picking out a killfest for young kids I would go for Survive: Escape from Atlantis!. Lots of death, great components, fun even for adults. If you can splurge, getting an out of print Heroscape ($200+) would be awesome. Great simple skirmish game that I played with my son when he was only 7.
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What Carl said.

Using expressions like 'at least for boys' is completely unnecessary. When I recommend a game, I don't say 'and I'm a man so other men may like it'.
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Rolliereed wrote:
Unsure why people are derailing this into a discussion on gender...


You must be new here. laugh
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Can I recommend Patchwork the quilting game for grandmas?
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Sam and Max wrote:
Rolliereed wrote:
Unsure why people are derailing this into a discussion on gender...


You must be new here. laugh

Sadly, he isn't.
 
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Mashpotassium wrote:
itsastickup wrote:

I don't subscribe to the new dogma of gender equality, nor even the word 'gender'. But if you wish to discuss it, then there's a group for that.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you don't believe in gender, then why specify that your kids being boys has an effect on whether they like it? And do you mean "gender equivalency" rather than "equality"?

Anyways, just as an FYI, this forum is usually used for people asking for recommendations from others, not giving unsolicited recommendations. I think it's to prevent spam.



Give it a rest. As a father of 3 boys who are now ages 18, 18 and 22 and we played boardgames for 15+ years, there are games that's I would play with them that I would never attempt to play with my sister or nieces.

The guy was enthusiastic about a game that his boys like, which I own and agree is great, and you want to turn it into a gender issue.
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Wolkster wrote:
Mashpotassium wrote:
itsastickup wrote:

I don't subscribe to the new dogma of gender equality, nor even the word 'gender'. But if you wish to discuss it, then there's a group for that.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you don't believe in gender, then why specify that your kids being boys has an effect on whether they like it? And do you mean "gender equivalency" rather than "equality"?

Anyways, just as an FYI, this forum is usually used for people asking for recommendations from others, not giving unsolicited recommendations. I think it's to prevent spam.



Give it a rest. As a father of 3 boys who are now ages 18, 18 and 22 and we played boardgames for 15+ years, there are games that's I would play with them that I would never attempt to play with my sister or nieces.

The guy was enthusiastic about a game that his boys like, which I own and agree is great, and you want to turn it into a gender issue.

The OP turned it into a gender issue.

Maybe your niece and sister wouldn't like Clash of the Gladiators, but I'm sure there are many females who would enjoy playing it.
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Barmybee wrote:
Wolkster wrote:
Mashpotassium wrote:
itsastickup wrote:

I don't subscribe to the new dogma of gender equality, nor even the word 'gender'. But if you wish to discuss it, then there's a group for that.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you don't believe in gender, then why specify that your kids being boys has an effect on whether they like it? And do you mean "gender equivalency" rather than "equality"?

Anyways, just as an FYI, this forum is usually used for people asking for recommendations from others, not giving unsolicited recommendations. I think it's to prevent spam.



Give it a rest. As a father of 3 boys who are now ages 18, 18 and 22 and we played boardgames for 15+ years, there are games that's I would play with them that I would never attempt to play with my sister or nieces.

The guy was enthusiastic about a game that his boys like, which I own and agree is great, and you want to turn it into a gender issue.

The OP turned it into a gender issue.

Maybe your niece and sister wouldn't like Clash of the Gladiators, but I'm sure there are many females who would enjoy playing it.



No he didn't, those who read gender issue into his excitement and want to turn it into a PC issue did. He has boys, he said they liked it. As a father of 3 boys I would have said something similar. Nothing more, nothing less.

... To the OP, if they like Clash of the Gladiators I recommend Descent, Star Wars: Imperial Assault or Doom. Whichever they are interested in the most; Fantasy, Star Wars or Zombies. My boys also liked Arcadia Quest and RuneWars, but you will need to wait until they're a little older.
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Wolkster wrote:
No he didn't, those who read gender issue into his excitement and want to turn it into a PC issue did. He has boys, he said they liked it. As a father of 3 boys I would have said something similar. Nothing more, nothing less.


Nope. "Nothing more" than excitement about his boys enjoying it would have been "I'm delighted at how the boys have taken to it, 7 & 10".

"at least for boys" and "Perhaps some dads out there might be looking for something a little blood thirsty for their young tikes.", however, suggests he views it as a "boys and dads" game. Which does make it a gender issue.

It's the OP's language and the assumptions behind it (and his subsequent confirmation that he doesn't care about/believe in "the new dogma of gender equality") that caused the discussion, not the fact that he and his boys liked the game and he's excited about it.

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Gender equality is a new dogma and ideology that much of the world doesn't agree with.

I don't agree with it. There are objectively two distinct sexes and that's it. And while I agree in equality of dignity between the sexes, I firmly reject equality of the sexes as a harmful denial of human nature, and a denial of a most marvellous difference that we should be celebrating. All else is unsubstantiated and/or unscientific claims.

We can agree to disagree about that, but this thread and others like it aren't the place to be ramming the gender equality ideology down other peoples throats.

It's a political issue and I'm uninterested in debating it.
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itsastickup wrote:
Gender equality is a new dogma and ideology that much of the world doesn't agree with.

I don't agree with it. There are two distinct sexes and that's it. And while I agree in equality of dignity between the sexes, I firmly reject equality of the sexes as a harmful denial of human nature, and a denial of a most marvellous difference that we should be celebrating. All else is unsubstantiated and/or unscientific claims.

We can agree to disagree about that, but this thread and others like it aren't the place to be ramming the gender equality ideology down other peoples throats.

It's a political issue and I'm uninterested in debating it.

I agree that this forum should be about discussing game recommendations, not ideology, but "ramming ideology down other people's throats" is exactly what you are doing, and you brought your ideology up in the title and in the first post, before anyone else did, so don't complain if others do the same. If you don't want those discussions, leave out the "at least for boys" and "dads looking for..." comments and it won't come up.
If it is "human nature" shake, us women won't read threads about "dice kill-fests" and "blood thirsty" games anyway, so why bother mentioning it, except to voice your ideology?
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marble911 wrote:
Wolkster wrote:
No he didn't, those who read gender issue into his excitement and want to turn it into a PC issue did. He has boys, he said they liked it. As a father of 3 boys I would have said something similar. Nothing more, nothing less.


Nope. "Nothing more" than excitement about his boys enjoying it would have been "I'm delighted at how the boys have taken to it, 7 & 10".

"at least for boys" and "Perhaps some dads out there might be looking for something a little blood thirsty for their young tikes.", however, suggests he views it as a "boys and dads" game. Which does make it a gender issue.

It's the OP's language and the assumptions behind it (and his subsequent confirmation that he doesn't care about/believe in "the new dogma of gender equality") that caused the discussion, not the fact that he and his boys liked the game and he's excited about it.




Nope. He has boys, so he has no other point of view. If he had a daughter or two as well he might say something different. I only have boys, so I would say something similar. He's qualifying his statement not making a gender issue out of it.

Plus, as someone who has played Advanced Squad Leader and other wargames for 25+ years and has attended wargaming tournaments for an average of 3 a year for those 25 years with up to 170 in attendance without a SINGLE woman playing in any of those 75+ events, I say there's nothing wrong with differentiating between a game a boy might like and a girl might not.
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marble911 wrote:
itsastickup wrote:


It's a political issue and I'm uninterested in debating it.

I agree that this forum should be about discussing game recommendations, not ideology, but "ramming ideology down other people's throats" is exactly what you are doing, and you brought your ideology up in the title and in the first post, before anyone else did, so don't complain if others do the same. If you don't want those discussions, leave out the "at least for boys" and "dads looking for..." comments and it won't come up.
If it is "human nature" shake, us women won't read threads about "dice kill-fests" and "blood thirsty" games anyway, so why bother mentioning it, except to voice your ideology?


That's your presumption. I had no thought, not for a second, of this issue in my mind when I posted and have absolutely no interest in debating it. And when other new threads might express some form of alignment with gender equality, I and others who don't agree, which is many of us, don't then jump on them to contradict what appears to be a matter of belief.

Rather it's live and let live.

I've expressed my position as a matter of clarifying that this is a matter of a new idealogy, not based in scientific fact, that therefore doesn't justify hijacking a thread. As for the notion that acknowledging the difference is an ideology: the difference is brute fact. No ideology necessary.
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Thanks for the recommendation. Always looking for new games for my boys (9 & 11) to play. And Gladiators is a theme they can relate to only because of the movie.

Tom Vassel's video review of CotG mentions playing the game with teenage boys at the 5:55 mark - which I don't suspect was exclusive. It was relational and one based on his experience. I took it that he mentors teenage boys, maybe to help keep them out of trouble.

Video link

The same with the OP here. I read it as a relation perspective - not exclusive to a gender. He has boys. He probably does not have girls.

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itsastickup wrote:
marble911 wrote:
itsastickup wrote:


It's a political issue and I'm uninterested in debating it.

I agree that this forum should be about discussing game recommendations, not ideology, but "ramming ideology down other people's throats" is exactly what you are doing, and you brought your ideology up in the title and in the first post, before anyone else did, so don't complain if others do the same. If you don't want those discussions, leave out the "at least for boys" and "dads looking for..." comments and it won't come up.
If it is "human nature" shake, us women won't read threads about "dice kill-fests" and "blood thirsty" games anyway, so why bother mentioning it, except to voice your ideology?


I had no thought, not for a second, of this issue in my mind when I posted

Perhaps that makes it worse. You're not aware of how your choice of words could be interpreted and you can't see what was wrong with what you said.

By the way, no one needs justification to derail a thread. They'll just do it.
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skutsch wrote:
itsastickup wrote:

Gender is an invented term rich with nuance; and that I don't bother myself with.

Human language is all invented, by humans. The use of gender to refer to male or female dates back to the 15th century. It became more common in the 20th century when the word "sex", previously used for the same purpose, became too erotically charged.


That's really not the case. Gender was about categories prior to the 20th century. It's in the 20th century that we have it taken over to specifically refer to male/female, masculine/feminine and all sorts of notions between. It's a new invention that doesn't refer to a concrete fact but rather a social ideology.

Quote:
You did introduce a gender debate when you said "at least for boys" in your title, suggesting that for some reasons you think it possible that girls might not like a game boys would like.


...only by presumption. In fact I am agree that some (few) girls are bloodthirsty and would like this game. But if a Dad is looking for a masculine oriented game, as many would in regard to their boys, then this is my recommendation. Except to act on the equality notion that gender is entirely a matter of social construction (the science is very much against that), it's not something I would recommend to mums for their daughters.

Quote:
When I recommend games I don't say: "It's a great game, at least for males" or "It's a great game, at least for white people," I'll just say "it's a great game." Your extra "at least for boys" seems unnecessary to me, and I think to others. It smacks of an ideological trojan horse stuck into an otherwise innocuous recommendation.


Well, it wasn't my intention. Call me insensitive, but I had no thought to it when I posted.

Meanwhile, equating this to racism is really over-cooking the argument, as well as being a matter of introducing a form of politically-charged, emotional blackmail. Racism is arguably in regards to something superficial. The difference of the sexes is not in the least superficial and not a matter of ideology; or to put it another way, it's for the quality ideologists to prove their case not the rest of us. But now I'm beginning to debate the matter. Sigh.

Quote:

As to the game itself, you seem to be a bit of an outlier. The game has a 5.9 rating and is out of print. Still, different strokes for different folks.


Sure, which is why I thought it worth bringing to people's attention. While it may not be popular among gamers, it's a great kids game


Quote:
EDIT: If I was picking out a killfest for young kids I would go for Survive: Escape from Atlantis!. Lots of death, great components, fun even for adults. If you can splurge, getting an out of print Heroscape ($200+) would be awesome. Great simple skirmish game that I played with my son when he was only 7.


Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look in to it. Perhaps by pnp at that price.
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Wolkster wrote:
Nope. He has boys, so he has no other point of view. If he had a daughter or two as well he might say something different. I only have boys, so I would say something similar. He's qualifying his statement not making a gender issue out of it.

A useful qualifying statement would be "at least for my boys". That would describe his point of view. What he does is generalising from a sample size of two. Besides, putting a "qualifier" like that isn't usually done, so it does stand out as making a statement, at least to me.
Should I, after having enjoyed playing Star Trek Attack Wing with a friend, title my thread "a brilliant game, at least for white, thirty-something females" since that is our point of view? Or would that strike you as odd?

Quote:
Plus, as someone who has played Advanced Squad Leader and other wargames for 25+ years and has attended wargaming tournaments for an average of 3 a year for those 25 years with up to 170 in attendance without a SINGLE woman playing in any of those 75+ events, I say there's nothing wrong with differentiating between a game a boy might like and a girl might not.

And how much of this is due to a "natural, scientifically proven" difference between what men and women like, and how much is due to kids not being exposed to anything but the stereotypical "gender appropriate" toys? How much of it is due to men creating an unfriendly atmosphere for women? Men suggesting that it isn't "natural" for them to be playing those games because we should "celebrate that most marvellous difference", as the OP has stated?
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itsastickup wrote:
I had no thought, not for a second, of this issue in my mind when I posted and have absolutely no interest in debating it. And when other new threads might express some form of alignment with gender equality, I and others who don't agree, which is many of us, don't then jump on them to contradict what appears to be a matter of belief.

If you had no interest in debating it, you could have left it at "I've only played it with my sons, so that is the only perspective I have". But you didn't. You are more than interested in expressing your ideology (sorry, but talking about "a most marvellous difference that we should be celebrating" is nothing but ideology - calling it "marvellous" and worthy of celebration has nothing to do with scientific fact, that's a pure value judgement), you just don't want to hear an opinion that's different from yours.

Edit, because I forgot: It's also not true that "you and others who don't agree" don't jump on those other new threads. It may well be true that you don't, but others certainly do. There have been plenty of those posts. Men complaining that a game like One Deck Dungeon is sexist for not having male characters when women were just enjoying having multiple female heroes to choose from, for example. I think you are just more likely to notice when someone jumps on your thread and disagrees with something you believe in than when it happens to others.
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Quote:
Quote:
I had no thought, not for a second, of this issue in my mind when I posted

Perhaps that makes it worse. You're not aware of how your choice of words could be interpreted and you can't see what was wrong with what you said.


Well I certainly inferred in that second post an undertone of moral judgement, rightly or wrongly. But in fact there was nothing 'wrong' with what I said. And I was thoroughly disappointed to find the first reply, and my response reflected that. All I wanted to do was share my happiness with the game and maybe also joyfully read other people's happy experiences also. Instead I got riled by someone's presumptuous attitude.

But what is arguably wrong is to insist, with reproaches, on an ideology that has no basis in objective fact, science or anthropology, rather the opposite. Here, for instance, is an article in a UK progressive newspaper that I read, of a phenomena that has anthropological underpinnings:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/02/men-women-br...

The rejection of "Men are from mars, Women are from Venus" by effectively denying the sex difference will not cure us of the problems in relations between the sexes, but rather make it worse.

The only mistake I made, because in my enthusiasm and excitement (yes, I was excited) I simply wasn't thinking of it, I quickly banged out a post without taking in to consideration that the thread might be picked up by gender equalitists. Had I thought of it I might have reworded.

Quote:
By the way, no one needs justification to derail a thread. They'll just do it.


Can't deny that.
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