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Subject: Foiled Again! rss

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Corey Hopkins
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Lady Justice delivers another slap in the face to the Orange Groper.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/15/politics/travel-ban-blocked/in...
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Marco Schaub
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Man, I really hope "The Orange Groper" sticks...
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Michael
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Someone on fb put it quite well: "Oh, to be a microwave in the White House now".
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Jon Badolato
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Pissed off tweet coming from Trump in 3...2...1...
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Walt
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oldsin wrote:
Someone on fb put it quite well: "Oh, to be a microwave in the White House now".

A microwave on the White House wall. laugh
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Welcome Rolling Stones
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It's almost as if the people in the White House have no idea what they are doing!
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Andre
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The ban evaluation is destined to reach the Surpeme Court, and it will be interesting to see how they vote. On the surface, it looks like discriminations against a particular religion, since the 6 countries targeted have Muslim populations greater than 90%, but there are many nuances to this case, including intent and motives of the ban, timing of the ban and revised ban, discrimination precedents, the broad ranging powers of a President to enact security measures that protect. Listening to CNN this morning, the decision ultimately rendered may boil down to what legal standard they use to weigh the ban, to determine its Constitutionality.

What does NOT help Trump, is the fact that, despite the original ban being touted as necessary immediatley to protect the country, it took his team over a month to craft the new revised ban. As much as I appreciate the desire to get it right, how pressing could the original ban have been, if they took their time to revise it? And let's be honest here, there is no evidence on the books to suggest that refugees from those 6 banned countries, have conducted terrorism agains the USA, in the past.
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Sam I am
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emptyset wrote:
Man, I really hope "The Orange Groper" sticks...


How about "The Orange Gropenfuhrer".
Essentially the same but with a slight nod toward his proclivities.
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Julius Waller
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Quote:
And let's be honest here, there is no evidence on the books to suggest that refugees from those 6 banned countries, have conducted terrorism against the USA, in the past.


Are you being sarcastic? Did you forget Lockerbie? The USS Cole bombing? Ohio State? I will grant you that Syria is a bit of an odd one out but the other countries have sadly yielded their small share of terrorists attacking the US.
 
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Andre
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TrustyJules wrote:
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And let's be honest here, there is no evidence on the books to suggest that refugees from those 6 banned countries, have conducted terrorism against the USA, in the past.


Are you being sarcastic? Did you forget Lockerbie? The USS Cole bombing? Ohio State? I will grant you that Syria is a bit of an odd one out but the other countries have sadly yielded their small share of terrorists attacking the US.


Read my statement, and look at the ban. You will see the key word "refugee" in my statement, and you will see the word "immigrant" in the ban. They are worried about damage done WITHIN this country, by people that emigrate here. Lockerbie occured outside the confines of the USA, as did the USS Cole bombing. And those were not conducted by emigrants to U.S. soil. I am not sure what you are referring to with regard to Ohio State, so I cannot comment. Sarcasm was not intended at all, and my statement is clear. There may be one or two cases, but I have not heard (or seen reports) demonstrating that any IMMIGRANTS from those 6 countries, conducted some terrorism act on U.S. soil, after arriving here. Correct the record if it is wrong, I am not adverse to bringing out the truth.
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Julius Waller
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You are being facile here - the measure affects people from countries suspected of harbouring terrorists. I grant you refugees and immigrants are primarily affected but any businessmen or visitors are as well. You may disagree with the method and its effect(iveness) - and frankly I would be with you there - but you cant say its just about refugees cos it aint.

Second you are just plain wrong regardless. Ohio State (November 28 2016) was an attack by a Somali refugee.
 
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Andre
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NO Trump is being facile, tell me why Iraq was removed from the ban list? Do they not harbour terrorists?
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Josh
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TrustyJules wrote:
You are being facile here - the measure affects people from countries suspected of harbouring terrorists. I grant you refugees and immigrants are primarily affected but any businessmen or visitors are as well. You may disagree with the method and its effect(iveness) - and frankly I would be with you there - but you cant say its just about refugees cos it aint.

Second you are just plain wrong regardless. Ohio State (November 28 2016) was an attack by a Somali refugee.


Which, was not the sort of thing that any sort of vetting at all would pick up. This is a person apparently radicalized in a brief period of time after a couple years of normal living in the US. One might even go so far as to hypothesize his radicalization was in fact in response to the radical anti-Muslim rhetoric spewed forth by candidate then president elect Trump and his cohort.
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Julius Waller
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@andre
Nice attempt to change the subject - I said nothing about that, I just remarked you were wrong in stating there is no evidence people from these countries (refugees and/or the rest of them) have never engaged in terrorist attacks in the US. Even your more limited claim that refugees (who I insist are not the sole targets of the measure) have not engaged in such behaviour in the US is false, its even more false if we would look at attacks in and on the western powers.

I think the ban is useless and a far more sophisticated screening of anyone entering the country would be more effective and cause less backlash. Any strategy to try and pick out terrorists - which inevitably involves paying more attention to groups that have higher likelyhood of harbouring them makes statistical practical sense. The fact Iraq is off the list weakens the haphazard (if any) effectiveness that the measure might have, however same as for the Saudis the US was confronted with a dilemma: 'Despite the higher than average incidence of potential terrorists from those countries there is an even higher incidence of allies (local support of US troups, translaters and the like) and business relationships'.

My further problem with your post and some others is that Obama had a ban in place that didnt differ that much from what Trump is doing and noone gave a peep. It would be better to think about what measures we find acceptable to screen for safety rather take these clunkers of decisions.

EDIT: Was sniped by another post so I had to indicate who I was responding to.


 
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Jage
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If it IS a "Muslim ban", why are many of the countries with the world's largest Muslims populations not mentioned at all?

Lets look at the 10 countries with the largest Muslim populations in the world!

10. Morroco - 31.9 Million (Not on the list)
9. Algeria - 34.7 Million (Not on the list)
8. Turkey - 71.3 Million (Not on the list)
7. Iran - 73.6 Million (On the list)
6. Egypt - 77.0 Million (Not on the list)
5. Nigeria - 77.3 Million (Not on the list)
4. Bangladesh - 134.4 million (Not on the list)
3. India - 167.4 Million (Not on the list)
2. Pakistan - 176.2 Million (Not on the list)
1. Indonesia - 209.1 Million (Not on the list)


Hm....

Total Estimated Worldwide Population of Muslims ~1.6 Billion

Total population of Muslims in affected countries according to Pew 2010: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/

Iran (74 million)
Sudan (33.6 million)
Yemen (24 million)
Syria (20.4 million)
Somalia (9.3 million)
Libya (6.4 million)

Percent of worldwide Muslims who live in countries named under the Executive Order: 167.7 Million

Percent ~10.5%

so, 89.5% of Muslims are not included in the "Muslim Ban"?

Not to mention, all of the Non-muslims from the 6 named countries also included.
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Sam I am
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KrazyIrish89 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
emptyset wrote:
Man, I really hope "The Orange Groper" sticks...


How about "The Orange Gropenfuhrer".
Essentially the same but with a slight nod toward his proclivities.


Personally I think any comparison to Hitler, which apparently is the "in" thing to do right now, greatly weakens the lefts actual legitimate arguments against President Trump. Childish insults just make people appear....well childish.

I consider myself a moderate first and foremost. I am not happy with where the Republican party is today, but this focus on attacking Trump's appearance and overreacting in general (i.e Hitler comparisons) makes supporting the democrats just as hard a pill to swallow. If the democrats just focus on professionally refuting republican policies and maintain some composure and unity they should (in theory) be able to sweep in the next election cycle. I am dubious however that that will happen.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppenf%C3%BChrer

never said Hitler that's too generous.
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Andre
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TrustyJules wrote:

@andre
Nice attempt to change the subject - I said nothing about that, I just remarked you were wrong in stating there is no evidence people from these countries (refugees and/or the rest of them) have never engaged in terrorist attacks in the US. Even your more limited claim that refugees (who I insist are not the sole targets of the measure) have not engaged in such behaviour in the US is false, its even more false if we would look at attacks in and on the western powers.

I think the ban is useless and a far more sophisticated screening of anyone entering the country would be more effective and cause less backlash. Any strategy to try and pick out terrorists - which inevitably involves paying more attention to groups that have higher likelyhood of harbouring them makes statistical practical sense. The fact Iraq is off the list weakens the haphazard (if any) effectiveness that the measure might have, however same as for the Saudis the US was confronted with a dilemma: 'Despite the higher than average incidence of potential terrorists from those countries there is an even higher incidence of allies (local support of US troups, translaters and the like) and business relationships'.

My further problem with your post and some others is that Obama had a ban in place that didnt differ that much from what Trump is doing and noone gave a peep. It would be better to think about what measures we find acceptable to screen for safety rather take these clunkers of decisions.

EDIT: Was sniped by another post so I had to indicate who I was responding to.




But when one looks at Trumps ban list, one has the responsibility to determine how those countries got on the list. I ask you this, most of the 9-11 attackers were Suadis, if it is the intent of Trump to stop terrorists from reaching this country, why is Saudi Arabia not on the banned list. I will tell you why, because they are a political ally. The ban has nothing to do with a valid attempt to keep terrorists away, so much as it is going to be successful in keeping Muslims away, most of whom likely have no terrorist background. Ultimately the courts will determine the bans Constitutionality, but I for one am keenly interested in how those specific countries got on the ban list, while other more deserving ones (i.e., Saudi Arabia) did not make the list. It's hypocrisy at best. It's unconstitutional, at worst.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/16/us/white-irish-undocumented-tr...

Why isn't Ireland on the banned list?
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Dale Elliot

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jageroxorz wrote:
If it IS a "Muslim ban", why are many of the countries with the world's largest Muslims populations not mentioned at all?

Lets look at the 10 countries with the largest Muslim populations in the world!

10. Morroco - 31.9 Million (Not on the list)
9. Algeria - 34.7 Million (Not on the list)
8. Turkey - 71.3 Million (Not on the list)
7. Iran - 73.6 Million (On the list)
6. Egypt - 77.0 Million (Not on the list)
5. Nigeria - 77.3 Million (Not on the list)
4. Bangladesh - 134.4 million (Not on the list)
3. India - 167.4 Million (Not on the list)
2. Pakistan - 176.2 Million (Not on the list)
1. Indonesia - 209.1 Million (Not on the list)


Hm....

Total Estimated Worldwide Population of Muslims ~1.6 Billion

Total population of Muslims in affected countries according to Pew 2010: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/

Iran (74 million)
Sudan (33.6 million)
Yemen (24 million)
Syria (20.4 million)
Somalia (9.3 million)
Libya (6.4 million)

Percent of worldwide Muslims who live in countries named under the Executive Order: 167.7 Million

Percent ~10.5%

so, 89.5% of Muslims are not included in the "Muslim Ban"?

Not to mention, all of the Non-muslims from the 6 named countries also included.


You're looking at the statistics from the wrong side.

If you look at Muslim immigration to the US, over half of the refugees in 2016 came from countries affected by the ban and somewhere around a third of the current immigrant Muslim population is from one of the affected countries. There are more US residents that were originally born in Iran than from any other Muslim country.

It might only affect 10% of the world's Muslim population, but the number is much, much more substantial if you look at the number of immigrants that come for those countries. He doesn't need to ban them if they aren't coming in the first place. He doesn't need to ban every Muslim country to ensure Muslims don't come to the US. He just needs to ban the countries of origin of the majority of Muslim immigrants.
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Chris Binkowski
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When was the last terrorist attack on US soil?

-edit-

Nevermind, found a list: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html
 
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Wendell
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Sarxis wrote:
When was the last terrorist attack on US soil?

-edit-

Nevermind, found a list: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html


Dylan Roof's mass slaughter in South Carolina?
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J.D. Hall
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Sarxis wrote:
When was the last terrorist attack on US soil?

-edit-

Nevermind, found a list: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html


Sorry, Chris, but I call that list bullshit. From 1869 up until the early 1960s, the Ku Klux Klan carried out systematic and frequent acts of terrors upon black Americans, Roman Catholics, Jews, and any individuals and/or groups that supported them. Murders, firebombings, and intimidation were part of the fabric of America in that time.
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Vic Lineal
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Mentioning the Lockerbie bombing is wonderful because everyone and their cousin knew it was Syria with Irani backing, but it was pegged to the Libyans for the simple reason that a global terror villain was needed and Gaddafi was happy to play the part. Libya was blamed not because they were responsible, but because it was politically expedient and they couldn't retaliate.

Which is sort of relevant when we are discussing a travel ban from countries "suspected of harbouring terrorists" while leaving the main known sponsors of terrorism out of it (which, totally coincidental, are staunch regional US allies).
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Wendell
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viclineal wrote:
Mentioning the Lockerbie bombing is wonderful because everyone and their cousin knew it was Syria with Irani backing, but it was pegged to the Libyans for the simple reason that a global terror villain was needed and Gaddafi was happy to play the part. Libya was blamed not because they were responsible, but because it was politically expedient and they couldn't retaliate.


Vic, you're gonna have to offer proof if you start with this sort of allegation. The idea of Qadafi happily accepting sanctions and the like to cover up for Syria and Iran is not plausible, for one thing.
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wifwendell wrote:
viclineal wrote:
Mentioning the Lockerbie bombing is wonderful because everyone and their cousin knew it was Syria with Irani backing, but it was pegged to the Libyans for the simple reason that a global terror villain was needed and Gaddafi was happy to play the part. Libya was blamed not because they were responsible, but because it was politically expedient and they couldn't retaliate.


Vic, you're gonna have to offer proof if you start with this sort of allegation. The idea of Qadafi happily accepting sanctions and the like to cover up for Syria and Iran is not plausible, for one thing.

Not sure about Qadafi happily accepting canctions but there has always been doubt in the UK that the narrative is more complicated. e.g.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/1...
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Mac Mcleod
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remorseless1 wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
When was the last terrorist attack on US soil?

-edit-

Nevermind, found a list: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html


Sorry, Chris, but I call that list bullshit. From 1869 up until the early 1960s, the Ku Klux Klan carried out systematic and frequent acts of terrors upon black Americans, Roman Catholics, Jews, and any individuals and/or groups that supported them. Murders, firebombings, and intimidation were part of the fabric of America in that time.


Of course, lots of people carried out stuff like that in the 1960s. You couldn't be cool and get the hot chicks if your movement didn't have some danger to it.

Seriously, a lot of people had been oppressed for decades and got violent about then as well. Probably boomer related too with a surge of young hotheads.
 
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