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Subject: [Daily Beast] "What Makes a ‘Real’ Woman? Welcome to the New Liberal Transphobia" rss

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Claire Anderson
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/03/15/what-makes-...

A really good article on annoying things that trans people face from liberals who are ostensibly on our side.

Highlights
Quote:
But that narrative, of course, was ridiculous. Blaming transgender people for Trump is a bit like blaming global warming on polar bears. As we’ve seen so far, transgender people have been one of the Trump administration’s first targets—and there’s no data whatsoever to suggest they were not one of its primary causes, as Boston Globe columnist Joan Vennochi observed.
If anything, there’s reason to believe that visible public support for transgender people was a deciding factor in the opposite direction: As author Jennifer Finney Boylan pointed out, there was “really only one [2016] race in which LGBT rights played a major role,” and North Carolina governor Pat McCrory—who championed his state’s notorious “bathroom bill”—is now out of a job and reportedly having a tough time finding work.


Quote:
Oppression isn’t a requirement for womanhood, and gender isn’t solely a matter of privilege. But as transgender people slowly gain acceptance, we can expect to see more ostensibly progressive commentators like Murray and Adichie whip out their “oppression rulers” to decide whether or not transgender women have suffered enough to be considered members of their own gender.


Quote:
Liberal transphobia contains that same trap: Those who circulate it are so self-assured that they are not prejudiced that neither they—nor their audiences, in many cases—can see how they are shoring up the same myths and misconceptions that have been used to deny rights to transgender people for decades.
They do so, too, in a media environment that, by virtue of not having enough transgender voices, is ill-equipped to unpack their statements.


Quote:
All of these subtle digs at the transgender community are particularly ill-timed. So far, in the first three months of 2017, the Trump administration has withdrawn crucial guidance for transgender students, the Supreme Court decided not to hear a case that could have set nationwide precedent for transgender equality, and at least seven transgender women have been murdered.
Faced with this threat, it would be great if liberals who definitely aren’t transphobic would spend less time reassuring themselves of that fact and more time learning not to repeat history’s mistakes.

 
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Mike Stiles
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A strident opinion piece!
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windsagio wrote:
A strident opinion piece!


I was seriously considering posting an article about black antifa that I figured would get everyone riled up tonight lol
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Moshe Callen
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With respect, much of the reason for a backlash against trans people (if that's not a respectful term please do correct me) is exemplified by Caitlin Jenner talking about why she identifies as a woman and spouting virtually every stereotype feminists have been fighting for years. Moreover this person who spent most of her life as a highly privileged wealthy upper class white male is suddenly being touted as speaking as a representative of all women when in reality she bears little connection to most women for whom she has taken on the role to speak.
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Errrm - that rant seems mainly to boil down to a variant of 'holier than thou' or in this case more 'womanly than thou'.

What metric is applicable here? I would contend there is none - trans-women, cis-women, black-women, handicapped-women are all women. That they have different experiences is evident. That one should take that as a measure of their 'womanliness' seems a little strange.

Consider this picture:



Is transalpine Gaul any less Gaul than cis-alpine Gaul? Would they have had different experiences and differentiated themselves from each other?

Sorry for the cheap joke - but the point is more serious. You cannot measure your gender identity by fiercely resisting any observations that you are not identical with everyone belonging to your group.
 
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TrustyJules wrote:
Errrm - that rant…

Whose rant are you referring to?
 
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whac3 wrote:
With respect, much of the reason for a backlash against trans people (if that's not a respectful term please do correct me) is exemplified by Caitlin Jenner talking about why she identifies as a woman and spouting virtually every stereotype feminists have been fighting for years. Moreover this person who spent most of her life as a highly privileged wealthy upper class white male is suddenly being touted as speaking as a representative of all women when in reality she bears little connection to most women for whom she has taken on the role to speak.


Honestly this is ridiculous. I've never once heard of Caitlin Jenner treated as a representative of all women.

Furthermore it's bull shit to expect trans women to not offend the sensibilities of what some feminists have decided is not proper womanly behavior because she might fulfill a stereotype. That kind of feminism is the most regressive kind.
 
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As an aside it's unfortunately the lot of a trans woman that if you act too stereotypically feminine that it's all just an act, but if you don't act stereotypically feminine enough that you're also faking it. It's quite an amazing Catch 22.
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J.D. Hall
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Meh. Chicks are crazy....

Just joking!!!!*

*--Sorta
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Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
With respect, much of the reason for a backlash against trans people (if that's not a respectful term please do correct me) is exemplified by Caitlin Jenner talking about why she identifies as a woman and spouting virtually every stereotype feminists have been fighting for years. Moreover this person who spent most of her life as a highly privileged wealthy upper class white male is suddenly being touted as speaking as a representative of all women when in reality she bears little connection to most women for whom she has taken on the role to speak.


Honestly this is ridiculous. I've never once heard of Caitlin Jenner treated as a representative of all women.

Furthermore it's bull shit to expect trans women to not offend the sensibilities of what some feminists have decided is not proper womanly behavior because she might fulfill a stereotype. That kind of feminism is the most regressive kind.

No, it's really not BS nor is this about choosing behavior that is stereotypical; it's about using stereotypes to define what it means to be a woman.
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whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
With respect, much of the reason for a backlash against trans people (if that's not a respectful term please do correct me) is exemplified by Caitlin Jenner talking about why she identifies as a woman and spouting virtually every stereotype feminists have been fighting for years. Moreover this person who spent most of her life as a highly privileged wealthy upper class white male is suddenly being touted as speaking as a representative of all women when in reality she bears little connection to most women for whom she has taken on the role to speak.


Honestly this is ridiculous. I've never once heard of Caitlin Jenner treated as a representative of all women.

Furthermore it's bull shit to expect trans women to not offend the sensibilities of what some feminists have decided is not proper womanly behavior because she might fulfill a stereotype. That kind of feminism is the most regressive kind.

No, it's really not BS nor is this about choosing behavior that is stereotypical; it's about using stereotypes to define what it means to be a woman.


Can you give an example of this?
 
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Yay, an article to divide liberals into more camps and to highlight cis women as a bunch of trans women hating bigots.
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Clairebot wrote:
Quote:

No, it's really not BS nor is this about choosing behavior that is stereotypical; it's about using stereotypes to define what it means to be a woman.


Can you give an example of this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w...

This link is to an opinion piece because I'm not expert enough to give both sides of the issue and link to examples of what I'm referring to. This opinion article does both fairly well, I think.

I mean seriously Jenner answered the question what the hardest part of being a woman is with the reply choosing what to wear. I became a feminist because of the real issues my wife and daughters face and that's just not in the running.
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Sue_G wrote:
Yay, an article to divide liberals into more camps and to highlight cis women as a bunch of trans women hating bigots.


So what are we supposed to do? Be more quiet about being thrown under the bus for the sake of liberal unity?
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whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
Quote:

No, it's really not BS nor is this about choosing behavior that is stereotypical; it's about using stereotypes to define what it means to be a woman.


Can you give an example of this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w...

This link is to an opinion piece because I'm not expert enough to give both sides of the issue and link to examples of what I'm referring to. This opinion article does both fairly well, I think.

I mean seriously Jenner answered the question what the hardest part of being a woman is with the reply choosing what to wear. I became a feminist because of the real issues my wife and daughters face and that's just not in the running.


So Jenner's experience of being a woman is different than other women's? I mean if she actually was being held up as the proto woman upon which all women's experiences are in relation to her, that would really be a problem. She's not though.

Yeah, Jenner is super fucking privileged and her concerns represent those of a very sheltered rich lady and she's kind of a crap feminist. That doesn't invalidate anyone else's experiences though.
 
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Clairebot wrote:
Sue_G wrote:
Yay, an article to divide liberals into more camps and to highlight cis women as a bunch of trans women hating bigots.


So what are we supposed to do? Be more quiet about being thrown under the bus for the sake of liberal unity?

I'd say rather be accepting of trans woman but accept that people even on the same "side" can have genuine valid disagreements.
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Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
Quote:

No, it's really not BS nor is this about choosing behavior that is stereotypical; it's about using stereotypes to define what it means to be a woman.


Can you give an example of this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w...

This link is to an opinion piece because I'm not expert enough to give both sides of the issue and link to examples of what I'm referring to. This opinion article does both fairly well, I think.

I mean seriously Jenner answered the question what the hardest part of being a woman is with the reply choosing what to wear. I became a feminist because of the real issues my wife and daughters face and that's just not in the running.


So Jenner's experience of being a woman is different than other women's? I mean if she actually was being held up as the proto woman upon which all women's experiences are in relation to her, that would really be a problem. She's not though.…

Isn't she?

EDIT:
Do I need to point out that she was named woman of the year?
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whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
Quote:

No, it's really not BS nor is this about choosing behavior that is stereotypical; it's about using stereotypes to define what it means to be a woman.


Can you give an example of this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w...

This link is to an opinion piece because I'm not expert enough to give both sides of the issue and link to examples of what I'm referring to. This opinion article does both fairly well, I think.

I mean seriously Jenner answered the question what the hardest part of being a woman is with the reply choosing what to wear. I became a feminist because of the real issues my wife and daughters face and that's just not in the running.


So Jenner's experience of being a woman is different than other women's? I mean if she actually was being held up as the proto woman upon which all women's experiences are in relation to her, that would really be a problem. She's not though.…

Isn't she?

EDIT:
Do I need to point out that she was named woman of the year?


So in order to be woman of the year you need to be representative of the experiences of all women?
 
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Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Isn't she?

EDIT:
Do I need to point out that she was named woman of the year?


So in order to be woman of the year you need to be representative of the experiences of all women?

Alright. You tell me what she did worthy of being called woman of the year.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Isn't she?

EDIT:
Do I need to point out that she was named woman of the year?


So in order to be woman of the year you need to be representative of the experiences of all women?

Alright. You tell me what she did worthy of being called woman of the year.


Highly visible trans woman who came out at a time that could be considered a crucial tipping point for the public's awareness of trans people?
 
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Jenner is rapidly becoming trans peoples Jesse Jackson. She doesn't actually speak for or represent trans people, but shes a useful club to swing criticism at trans people with. I mean its not like trans people made Jenner time woman of the year, but they're totally expected to explain it for whatever reason.
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Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Isn't she?

EDIT:
Do I need to point out that she was named woman of the year?


So in order to be woman of the year you need to be representative of the experiences of all women?

Alright. You tell me what she did worthy of being called woman of the year.


Highly visible trans woman who came out at a time that could be considered a crucial tipping point for the public's awareness of trans people?

So she herself didn't do anything; she just happened to get noticed? Funny how when a former rich white dude talks she still seems to get male privilege.
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Frankiedamn wrote:
Jenner is rapidly becoming trans peoples Jesse Jackson. She doesn't actually speak for or represent trans people, but shes a useful club to swing criticism at trans people with. I mean its not like trans people made Jenner time woman of the year, but they're totally expected to explain it for whatever reason.

I'd say Jenner being woman of the year is more comparable to Obama winning the Nobel Peace prize. In future it might well be deserved but not when it was given.
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whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Clairebot wrote:
whac3 wrote:

Isn't she?

EDIT:
Do I need to point out that she was named woman of the year?


So in order to be woman of the year you need to be representative of the experiences of all women?

Alright. You tell me what she did worthy of being called woman of the year.


Highly visible trans woman who came out at a time that could be considered a crucial tipping point for the public's awareness of trans people?

So she herself didn't do anything; she just happened to get noticed? Funny how when a former rich white dude talks she still seems to get male privilege.


Seriously Moshe, piss off.
 
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Clairebot wrote:


Seriously Moshe, piss off.

I'm sorry you feel that way.
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