Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Rising Sun» Forums » Rules

Subject: About the fixed order of play rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Giacomo Ancri
msg tools
Hi all,
I've just finished reading the last update about clans and I want to share some thoughts about the order of play.

I know I should wait till the rules are fully released but don't you think that with a fixed order of play for each clan, fixed starting honor and fixed events (Kami always happening turns 3,5 and 7) eventually players will develop some sort of best strategy for the first few rounds?
Of course I still don't know; it may be something like Koi and lotus Buddy, than Marshall and recruit to win the kami, or something else to get a significant advantage.
Whatever the best strategy will be I think it may be a big drawback since players will always try to use it, making the first few turns of each game pretty much the same.
The only variables I can think of are the fact that not all the clans will always be present (1 or 2 may be out, still not much difference) and that you have to draw the right cards, but 4 cards out of 10 with 2 copies of each is a big thing, especially with lotus that can do whatever it wants.

So what do you think? I hope I'm wrong because this will seriously affect replayability in my opinion.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Brown
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it would have come up as an issue during playtesting and Eric would have fixed it.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you said it yourself: the rules aren't even out yet. Add that to a completely incomprehensible gameplay video and any chance we have of thinking of rules issues go out the window. Eric has been in this business a long time and he's been working on this game for years...have a little faith.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J P
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's worth noting that Chess, which has been played for centuries, has a few optimal opening moves that skilled Chess players use all the time and so the first few moves are always the same. Yet, Chess seems to be infinitely replayable.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conan Meriadoc
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Barborco wrote:
The only variables I can think of are the fact that not all the clans will always be present (1 or 2 may be out, still not much difference) and that you have to draw the right cards, but 4 cards out of 10 with 2 copies of each is a big thing, especially with lotus that can do whatever it wants.

Variable Kami. Variable season cards. That's also bound to affect strategies, alliances, etc. a lot, besides what you mentioned.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thaddeus MacTaggart
Netherlands
Almere Buiten
Flevoland
flag msg tools
badge
Blood Rage fan - Raven Clan - FOR THE GLORY!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dystopian wrote:
Barborco wrote:
The only variables I can think of are the fact that not all the clans will always be present (1 or 2 may be out, still not much difference) and that you have to draw the right cards, but 4 cards out of 10 with 2 copies of each is a big thing, especially with lotus that can do whatever it wants.

Variable Kami. Variable season cards. That's also bound to affect strategies, alliances, etc. a lot, besides what you mentioned.

Exactly.

It still is a very tactical game requiring lots of improvisation, much like Blood Rage is.
I even wonder if you can often do the Oni tactic if you have the full KS set. Since there will only be 2 monsters available each season, chances are there's not a lot of Oni among them with so many other KSE monsters.
Unless I am mistaken (or the rules changed).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BG.EXE
United States
flag msg tools
I favor Euros, but I like pretty much all games.
badge
Make the kinds of posts you want to read.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dystopian wrote:
Variable Kami. Variable season cards. That's also bound to affect strategies, alliances, etc. a lot, besides what you mentioned.


In addition, variable player choices and variable player skill levels. The early moves of chess are solved for the tippy-top players in the world. Is OP going to play this game 10,000 times with the exact same group of 3-6 people so they can divine the optimal opening strategy?

More likely you're going to play it less than 10 times with the same 3-6 people, and other plays will bring in new players who make wildly different moves in the opening turns due to inexperience anyway.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikkel Østergaard
msg tools
Avatar
Teowulff wrote:
Dystopian wrote:
Barborco wrote:
The only variables I can think of are the fact that not all the clans will always be present (1 or 2 may be out, still not much difference) and that you have to draw the right cards, but 4 cards out of 10 with 2 copies of each is a big thing, especially with lotus that can do whatever it wants.

Variable Kami. Variable season cards. That's also bound to affect strategies, alliances, etc. a lot, besides what you mentioned.

Exactly.

It still is a very tactical game requiring lots of improvisation, much like Blood Rage is.
I even wonder if you can often do the Oni tactic if you have the full KS set. Since there will only be 2 monsters available each season, chances are there's not a lot of Oni among them with so many other KSE monsters.
Unless I am mistaken (or the rules changed).


I think Rising Sun is more strategic than tactical, but strategy also doesn't mean you don't have to change your strategy.

Also, I don't know where you have the monster limit from.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil Schmidt
United States
Woodbridge
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmb
I don't see there being a large problem with this. There are a lot of variables, and the biggest one being that you don't always get all the choices of what to do. Let's say someone does get so interested they 'solve' a given configuration and absolute best thing each player should do. Only Lotus is guaranteed going to be able to do what they want; the other clans being slightly at the mercy of which political mandates they draw. And the game is so interactive that as soon as someone deviates there is probably a new solution.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jean-Philippe Thériault
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DancingFool wrote:
It's worth noting that Chess, which has been played for centuries, has a few optimal opening moves that skilled Chess players use all the time and so the first few moves are always the same. Yet, Chess seems to be infinitely replayable.


Exactly. It's called an opening. Most good games have them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriel Cross
South Africa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Barborco wrote:
Whatever the best strategy will be I think it may be a big drawback since players will always try to use it, making the first few turns of each game pretty much the same.


In Cthulhu Wars, almost every faction does the same or a very simlar thing n the first round (move two cultists, build two gates). Sometimes there's some variation (and the Yellow Sign are invariably different) but in almost every game it's the same. Doesn't make the game any less fantastic or strategic.

Asymmetric clans should mean this game will have a lot of replayability (especially if/when any new clans get released).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thaddeus MacTaggart
Netherlands
Almere Buiten
Flevoland
flag msg tools
badge
Blood Rage fan - Raven Clan - FOR THE GLORY!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Arrowstormen wrote:
Teowulff wrote:
Since there will only be 2 monsters available each season, chances are there's not a lot of Oni among them with so many other KSE monsters.
Unless I am mistaken (or the rules changed).

Also, I don't know where you have the monster limit from.

I forgot. wowIt's mentioned .. somewhere.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert S
United Kingdom
Dundee
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
It always makes me wonder how is it that people think they know game better (based on some really scarce information) then it's designer. I think you should really trust someone like E.Lang (who is designing games for living and doing that really well) and wait with your criticisms about game until you play it or at least see the rulebook. If you can't just don't back.
5 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Canada
Quebec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Teowulff wrote:
Arrowstormen wrote:
Teowulff wrote:
Since there will only be 2 monsters available each season, chances are there's not a lot of Oni among them with so many other KSE monsters.
Unless I am mistaken (or the rules changed).

Also, I don't know where you have the monster limit from.

I forgot. wowIt's mentioned .. somewhere.


Likely limited by the number of base. Much like in Blood Rage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fel Barros
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Senior Game Developer at CMON
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There is an important aspect you didn't factor and that's the tea phase. Since order of play is important, it is not uncommon for players to try and arrange deals with the first player or the lotus or two players who will play in sequence...

What I am saying is that unlike chess or Puerto Rico or other games with perfect information, negotiation plays a big role in preventing those "openings" as you can arrange some deals to start with card x or y.

Furthermore, you need to factor which clans are in play (the presence or absence of clan x or y deeply impacts the game) , presence/absence of some gods impacting more the game and which set of cards you are playing. Combine that with the 'human factor' during negotiation and you have a game heavily replayable.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Sands
Canada
New Westminster
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FakeDutch wrote:
There is an important aspect you didn't factor and that's the tea phase. Since order of play is important, it is not uncommon for players to try and arrange deals with the first player or the lotus or two players who will play in sequence...

What I am saying is that unlike chess or Puerto Rico or other games with perfect information, negotiation plays a big role in preventing those "openings" as you can arrange some deals to start with card x or y.

Furthermore, you need to factor which clans are in play (the presence or absence of clan x or y deeply impacts the game) , presence/absence of some gods impacting more the game and which set of cards you are playing. Combine that with the 'human factor' during negotiation and you have a game heavily replayable.



True that! Don't forget about all those extra cool monsters that can be added/exchanged in!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Davi Rosa
Brazil
Brasília
DF
flag msg tools
badge
From the Dungeons and Dragons 80's cartoon. If only it was remade...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zeus_pl wrote:
It always makes me wonder how is it that people think they know game better (based on some really scarce information) then it's designer. I think you should really trust someone like E.Lang (who is designing games for living and doing that really well) and wait with your criticisms about game until you play it or at least see the rulebook. If you can't just don't back.


This is a place for talking things over. If you have a doubt about a game, an idea or pure speculation, then you come here and it would be nice to be received in a polite and civil way. Instead, people who are rude get upvotes.
Everyone, as long as they are polite, should be able to come here and question what they don't like or don't agree without being criticized themselves.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert S
United Kingdom
Dundee
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
gorondil wrote:
zeus_pl wrote:
It always makes me wonder how is it that people think they know game better (based on some really scarce information) then it's designer. I think you should really trust someone like E.Lang (who is designing games for living and doing that really well) and wait with your criticisms about game until you play it or at least see the rulebook. If you can't just don't back.


This is a place for talking things over. If you have a doubt about a game, an idea or pure speculation, then you come here and it would be nice to be received in a polite and civil way. Instead, people who are rude get upvotes.
Everyone, as long as they are polite, should be able to come here and question what they don't like or don't agree without being criticized themselves.


How am I being rude? Don't you think it's a bit too early to criticize game? People jump to conclusion without knowing to much and pointing that out is being rude? And I think it's quite a normal thing, one to be expected that if you start to criticize you may get the same.
3 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I wouldn't be surprised if some metas showed up for this game, but I'm not sure what they would be. For example, it might seem advantageous to do a Recruit just before the god phase ... but then, that would give the most advantage to the player just before you (because they would get to place their Shintos last). So, knowing that, you clearly can't do Recruit just before the god phase, since everyone else could place Shinto's more efficiently (especially the players just before you, who may well be before you due to higher honor any way!)

I'm seeing a lot of "Princess Bride" logic in this game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A Frag
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Becq wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if some metas showed up for this game, but I'm not sure what they would be. For example, it might seem advantageous to do a Recruit just before the god phase ... but then, that would give the most advantage to the player just before you (because they would get to place their Shintos last). So, knowing that, you clearly can't do Recruit just before the god phase, since everyone else could place Shinto's more efficiently (especially the players just before you, who may well be before you due to higher honor any way!)

I'm seeing a lot of "Princess Bride" logic in this game. :)


Remember, when you choose the recruit mandate, you and your ally each get to summon two units, so it isn't a bad move right before the Kami phase...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
afrag wrote:
Remember, when you choose the recruit mandate, you and your ally each get to summon two units, so it isn't a bad move right before the Kami phase...

Yes, I mentioned that. (As an aside, it isn't "two units", it's one per stronghold, and the mandate player and ally get one extra. So it's only two until you build a new stronghold.) But the problem is that as the player who chose the mandate, you place first. That means that everyone else can react to your placement, optimizing how best to place Shinto's of their own, while you have to place your own mostly blind. So the best possibly situation is probably to be seated to the right of your ally when they choose the recruit mandate just before the Kami phase, since you get the recruit bonus AND place last...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Schwartzberg
Canada
Thornhill
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Becq wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of "Princess Bride" logic in this game.


"One of the classic blunders... Never fight a land war in Asia" - Vizzini
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.