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Heroscape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie» Forums » General

Subject: Could've been saved if Kickstarter was around...? rss

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Panagiotis
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I put it to you. Given the attention that minis-based games get on Kickstarter nowadays, HS could've been saved as a living game had they continued expansions via Kickstarter with pared-down starter kit.
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True Blue Jon
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The people of Heroscapers.com already saved it as a living game without kickstarter.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Pokeweed Mitogen wrote:
I put it to you. Given the attention that minis-based games get on Kickstarter nowadays, HS could've been saved as a living game had they continued expansions via Kickstarter with pared-down starter kit.


As of last check Hasbro never does kickstarters. So would not have happened.

Worse. With the proliferation of minis heavy games they might have killed it off as there was too much competition.

but in the end Hasbro and WOTC botched handling it and it was pretty much doomed. Hasbro ignored designer advice and scrapped work allready done for upcoming releases.

The other problem was oversaturated market. Too many units were made and they languished on shelves. We got several boxes of Rise of the Valkyrie for 5$ each on clearance.
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Pokeweed Mitogen wrote:
I put it to you. Given the attention that minis-based games get on Kickstarter nowadays, HS could've been saved as a living game had they continued expansions via Kickstarter with pared-down starter kit.
Yeah, but that terrain...
I'd want the game resumed full-pace, but pure 'Scape, without Star Wars, Marvel, D&D.
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J Weintraub
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What Jon and John said; Hasbro doesn't do KS, so they wouldn't have bothered, and game continues regardless due to the heroes at Heroscapers.
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Timothy Young
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I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.
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TIM0THY wrote:
I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.

Why?
It lacks the best part of heroscape (the terrain in force) and puts weak-ass theme on it that most people who care about the theme already spend all their money on that and many of those who would buy it are turned off by the it.

It was terrible to try to retheme it to magic.
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D Conklin
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Maybe it will happen someday....

If you haven't seen Sir Heroscaper's CVN interview video yet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjlpLPPPb7U&t=280s), Craig mentions an eventual plan to go to Hasbro and try to buy the rights to HS. Whether that is just wishful thinking or actually in the realm of possibility is TBD.

He's focusing on getting his Soaring Rhino company going for now (first KS got cancelled, but they learned a lot), but even if they are established by the time they go to Hasbro...they will likely still need the support of a KS community to make it happen.

I'm just glad there are at least glimmers of hope!
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Timothy Young
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corkysru wrote:
TIM0THY wrote:
I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.

Why?


The OP's argument was that if Kickstarter had existed prior to the demise of Heroscape it would have saved the game. The implication there is that Hasbro could have used Kickstarter to market additional expansions for the game. Well, 2015 came around, Hasbro went to market with a game that essentially amounts to HS 2.0, and they didn't use Kickstarter to market it. I think this is a pretty strong indication that even if Kickstarter had been a viable option prior to the demise of Heroscape, Hasbro still wouldn't have considered using it, and thus, it wouldn't have changed anything about the fate of the game.
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Panagiotis
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TIM0THY wrote:
corkysru wrote:
TIM0THY wrote:
I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.

Why?


The OP's argument was that if Kickstarter had existed prior to the demise of Heroscape it would have saved the game. The implication there is that Hasbro could have used Kickstarter to market additional expansions for the game. Well, 2015 came around, Hasbro went to market with a game that essentially amounts to HS 2.0, and they didn't use Kickstarter to market it. I think this is a pretty strong indication that even if Kickstarter had been a viable option prior to the demise of Heroscape, Hasbro still wouldn't have considered using it, and thus, it wouldn't have changed anything about the fate of the game.


Yes, but one difference is that Arena of the Planeswalkers sucked. I'll give you that Hasbro would probably not look to KS , but what if they had? The germ of the question is could have crowdfunding saved the game?

(All due respect to Heroscapers occult continuation of the game, but I think you may know that's not what I'm talking about.)
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True Blue Jon
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I'm going to have to disagree with you. I think Arena of the Planeswalkers is even more fun than Heroscape.
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Panagiotis
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quozl wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with you. I think Arena of the Planeswalkers is even more fun than Heroscape.


Now them's fightin' words.

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Timothy Young
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Pokeweed Mitogen wrote:
TIM0THY wrote:
corkysru wrote:
TIM0THY wrote:
I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.

Why?


The OP's argument was that if Kickstarter had existed prior to the demise of Heroscape it would have saved the game. The implication there is that Hasbro could have used Kickstarter to market additional expansions for the game. Well, 2015 came around, Hasbro went to market with a game that essentially amounts to HS 2.0, and they didn't use Kickstarter to market it. I think this is a pretty strong indication that even if Kickstarter had been a viable option prior to the demise of Heroscape, Hasbro still wouldn't have considered using it, and thus, it wouldn't have changed anything about the fate of the game.


The germ of the question is could have crowdfunding saved the game?


I think this is valid question if you take Hasbro out of the mix. CVN's pipedream of purchasing the game from Hasbro, combined with the marketing potential of a well-run KS campaign certainly is a tantalizing prospect.

It's a longshot, with the biggest hurdle being the sale of the game by Hasbro to CVN. Not that I'm an industry expert- I really have no idea how likely such a deal would be. My gut says it's unlikely, but what do I know?

The next challenge would be creating a good KS campaign. CVN has fantastic game development chops- I don't think anyone here would deny that. But Soaring Rhino's recent attempt at kickstarting their first game shows that good game development skills don't necessarily translate directly to good game marketing/kickstarting skills. Ultimately though I think their aborted kickstarter campaign will prove to be a good learning experience and will help their company be more successful.

***

Thinking more about the idea of Soaring Rhino purchasing the rights to HS, I wonder whether they have the funds needed for the purchase. Perhaps they'll need a crowdfunding campaign to raise the funds needed
for the purchase. That could be a hard sell though- since the backers wouldn't be getting anything in return, other than warm fuzzy feelings for having helped give their favorite game a new lease on life.
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TIM0THY wrote:
Pokeweed Mitogen wrote:
TIM0THY wrote:
corkysru wrote:
TIM0THY wrote:
I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.

Why?


The OP's argument was that if Kickstarter had existed prior to the demise of Heroscape it would have saved the game. The implication there is that Hasbro could have used Kickstarter to market additional expansions for the game. Well, 2015 came around, Hasbro went to market with a game that essentially amounts to HS 2.0, and they didn't use Kickstarter to market it. I think this is a pretty strong indication that even if Kickstarter had been a viable option prior to the demise of Heroscape, Hasbro still wouldn't have considered using it, and thus, it wouldn't have changed anything about the fate of the game.


The germ of the question is could have crowdfunding saved the game?


I think this is valid question if you take Hasbro out of the mix. CVN's pipedream of purchasing the game from Hasbro, combined with the marketing potential of a well-run KS campaign certainly is a tantalizing prospect.

It's a longshot, with the biggest hurdle being the sale of the game by Hasbro to CVN. Not that I'm an industry expert- I really have no idea how likely such a deal would be. My gut says it's unlikely, but what do I know?

The next challenge would be creating a good KS campaign. CVN has fantastic game development chops- I don't think anyone here would deny that. But Soaring Rhino's recent attempt at kickstarting their first game shows that good game development skills don't necessarily translate directly to good game marketing/kickstarting skills. Ultimately though I think their aborted kickstarter campaign will prove to be a good learning experience and will help their company be more successful.

***

Thinking more about the idea of Soaring Rhino purchasing the rights to HS, I wonder whether they have the funds needed for the purchase. Perhaps they'll need a crowdfunding campaign to raise the funds needed
for the purchase. That could be a hard sell though- since the backers wouldn't be getting anything in return, other than warm fuzzy feelings for having helped give their favorite game a new lease on life.


I think you identified the problem. While Hasbro has been willing to give the rights back to outside designers, I'm not aware of any cases where it gave up the rights to an in-house design like Heroscape. It seems very rare, if not unprecedented. Complicating things is that we don't have just the ordinary copyright-based IP but there's also a patent involved (for the terrain tiles) which would seem likely to make the IP more expensive. Now, it may be that CVN retained contacts and good will that make it possible, only he would know. I certainly would not hold my breath.
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TIM0THY wrote:
I'll submit that the mediocre market performance of Arena of the Planeswalkers is a pretty strong counter point against the OP's argument.


Thats because it both isnt HS AND barely has any tiles. It was doomed right out the gate.
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Brad Miller
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No. The rise in plastic prices for product from China was the death knell. Some of us won't touch a KS with a ten foot pole.
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I think HS would be perfect for Kickstarter. Mini based games do very well. Even terrain for minis does pretty well.

Price points might be difficult if they continue pre-painted. And terrain might be a bit expensive as well. So while there's always a number of factors that could make it not work, I think there's potential for it to be a great fit.

An intriguing possibility for sure.
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Kickstarter would only have achieved what Hasbro already achieved anyway. The game was successful on launch & for numerous expansions. What wasn't there, for a big company like Hasbro, was the continued on-going sales. From everything that I have read, Heroscape made a profit for them just not enough of a constant throughput. They can put effort elsewhere, like re-theming Monopoly & make more continued sales then continuously bolstering up Heroscape. Hasbro delegating the Heroscape rights to WotC was an attempt to minimise the effort by re-using DnD IP. Sadly as we know that didn't work well enough to see continued effort worth the margins HS brought in compared to their other lines.
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Its more a problem of Hasbro doing pretty much what WOTC has done before to kill off a game. Print too much and while placing high target sales threshold.

The other problem is the transition to D&D HS was a very bumpy one as we are all aware. That hurt sales too most likely.

Hasbro did it again with D&D itself. Make X profit or get the axe.

And one thing people keep forgetting is that minis KS campaigns arent as profitible as you keep imagining. A huge chunk of that profit goes into shipping, sculpts, pressing, and everything else. And companies like Hasbro have far far better connections. They can have their games in department stores pretty much everywhere and they have the manufacturing connections too.
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Kickstarter was around by the time Heroscape was canceled.
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Timothy Young
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Kickstarter was around by the time Heroscape was canceled.


While this is a factually correct statement, I think it's worth pointing out that the spirit of this statement is contrary to the spirit of the OP's statement, since at the time HS was cancelled, KS was no where near as visible as it is today.
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soosy wrote:
I think HS would be perfect for Kickstarter. Mini based games do very well. Even terrain for minis does pretty well.

Price points might be difficult if they continue pre-painted. And terrain might be a bit expensive as well. So while there's always a number of factors that could make it not work, I think there's potential for it to be a great fit.

An intriguing possibility for sure.


There was at least one attempt at HS-like terrain on Kickstarter. I know because I backed it back in 2014.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yetimilitiagames/hygrou...

It was seemingly cancelled because there wasn't a big enough audience.

At one point they listed the results of a survey to see which games folks were buying the tiles for:

Quote:

Games that led the list are:
19% - Heroscape,
16% - DnD,
14% - Pathfinder,
5% - Battletech,
5% - 13th Age
20% - misc


To me the point is that even though there is a strong core Heroscape fan base (ie, us!), it might not be quite enough to support a large KS campaign.

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TIM0THY wrote:
Sarcasmorator wrote:
Kickstarter was around by the time Heroscape was canceled.


While this is a factually correct statement, I think it's worth pointing out that the spirit of this statement is contrary to the spirit of the OP's statement, since at the time HS was cancelled, KS was no where near as visible as it is today.

 
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TIM0THY wrote:
Sarcasmorator wrote:
Kickstarter was around by the time Heroscape was canceled.


While this is a factually correct statement, I think it's worth pointing out that the spirit of this statement is contrary to the spirit of the OP's statement, since at the time HS was cancelled, KS was no where near as visible as it is today.


Sure, but since Hasbro/WotC has yet to run a Kickstarter for anything at all, pointing out that KS was a quantity in 2010 is no more against the spirit of the OP than pointing out that Hasbro never does Kickstarters, as has already been done. It's visibility now is immaterial; Hasbro doesn't use it, then or now.
 
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I'm not sure why people keep pointing out that Hasbro never does kickstarters... the whole point of the original question is What If?

I mean it was fine to point out once... it means most likely the "what if" scenario would involve another company taking the reigns.
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