Mike Stiles
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Shaman
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
During the campaign, commentators had a hard time reconciling Trump’s apparent ignorance of Christianity and his history of pro-choice and pro-gay-rights statements with his support from evangelicals. But as Notre Dame’s Geoffrey Layman noted, “Trump does best among evangelicals with one key trait: They don’t really go to church.” A Pew Research Center poll last March found that Trump trailed Ted Cruz by 15 points among Republicans who attended religious services every week. But he led Cruz by a whopping 27 points among those who did not.


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/breakin...

What does this mean for the 'evangelical' label in the case where the branch that we've been talking about the most (pro Trump evangelicals) don't do the most basic sacraments of the church?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R. Frazier
United States
West Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
A man learns little by little in battle. Take this battle experience and become a man who can’t be beaten
badge
This flag says we will fight until only our bones are left.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmmm is it possible that they're getting their religion via internet preachers or televangelists?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Stiles
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Shaman
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rylfrazier wrote:
Hmmm is it possible that they're getting their religion via internet preachers or televangelists?


I suspect it means it's become a cultural identity instead of a faith issue.
35 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lynette
United States
Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
badge
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rylfrazier wrote:
Hmmm is it possible that they're getting their religion via internet preachers or televangelists?


I think it means they aren't getting much "religion" at all. They mostly are just remembering some things from before (often as far back as childhood) and that memory is very selective and self confirming.

Heck often that memory has nothing to do with actual "Church" attendance at all but turns out to be as much or more cultural and family instilled.

Just one example, my southern family was (and probably still is) very anti-mixed race marriage. But never in any time I every visited them did I ever hear anything racist from their preacher or Sunday School teachers.

When I asked them why they were so against interracial marriage they couldn't back it up with scriptures, other sometimes they would mention don't be unequally yoked, which so doesn't apply if you actually read that verse in context. So it was clearly a culturally learned prejudice not a religious taught one. And yet if pressed they would say there were sure God meant for people to marry others of the same race even if they couldn't back it up with bible.

So I bet their kids who stopped attending church never shed that prejudice and really don't in their guts or minds know that those attitudes are not in anyway supported by their actual nominal religious association.

So they get no NEW teaching or even a reinforcement of old teaching that tell them to be compassionate and loving to others. They stop doing much self examination at all. All they have left is a vague mixture of religion and culture from their past, with only the CULTURE getting added to and reinforced.

So whenever life gets hard personally, resentments against others can grow and fester unchecked by any of the good teachings from religion while culture tends to only bring up the harsher and often self serving messages from religion.


13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To me, what this says is that "evangelical" is more about taking whatever you believe and dressing it up in JEEUHSUS! So if you like to hate people, you can hate people by the power of JEEUHSUS! If you don't want others to accuse you of being ugly, you can just say it's not your fault because you were told to hate by JEEUHSUS!

I have said many times we are entering a time when casual faith will no longer stand up to scrutiny as it was able to even thirty years ago. To me, this looks like more evidence.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Chambers
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Not surprising at all. To people like that, religion and politics is the same thing.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R. Frazier
United States
West Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
A man learns little by little in battle. Take this battle experience and become a man who can’t be beaten
badge
This flag says we will fight until only our bones are left.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
windsagio wrote:
rylfrazier wrote:
Hmmm is it possible that they're getting their religion via internet preachers or televangelists?


I suspect it means it's become a cultural identity instead of a faith issue.


That makes sense, they just assume "I'm religious, I don't like X, X is probably against my religion".
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corey Hopkins
United States
Converse
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
windsagio wrote:
rylfrazier wrote:
Hmmm is it possible that they're getting their religion via internet preachers or televangelists?


I suspect it means it's become a cultural identity instead of a faith issue.


That's it exactly. For some anecdotal evidence, my wife and I go to church (almost) every weekend (we have Saturday evening services). My parents do as well. My in-laws go very infrequently, but would absolutely self-identify as evangelical Christians. My wife and I voted for Obama and Clinton, as did my parents. My in-laws are full-on Trump supporters.

His appeal with Christians has nothing to do with faith itself, and everything to do with evangelicals' persecution complex.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G Rowls
msg tools
Professional Agitation Consultant... HTTP Error 418 I'm a Teapot!
Avatar
mbmb
"you can hate people by the power of JEEUHSUS!" can't I hate them by the power of Gray SKULL!!! it's soo much more dynamic and dramatic!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
lotus dweller
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
The assumption underlying reported self-identification:
We see survey results.
We make some sort of sense of them.
From what I read of those understandings we often ignore the fact that the person answering the survey is in a social situation - whether actually with other humans, or understanding their survey response as having implications around how they will be perceived socially.

Ask someone in an area where "Christianity" is the tribal identifier, "Are you a Christian?", and the question that they actually answer could well be, "Do you conform to accepted social norms or are you a social isolate?".
Most people in areas where social cohesion is valued will go for the "I conform" answer.

That Trump's evangelicals are not members of a church-going groups suggests the possibility that they are isolated, not integrated, into their (presumably) wider church-going communities. This matches also with their "bubble"-isolation on social media.
And why they have accepted Trump's lack of decency.

Now the good news.
If these poeple are isolated from their communities and broader society there is a fix. And it looks do-able.

Fix = Social outreach by church-going evangelicals with the aim of drawing these people back into the congregation of Christ.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn Fox
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
Question everything
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Ya think maybe the evangelical label is being misapplied?

Just because someone is not a leftist does not make them an evangelical?

Nah. Everyone who isn't a leftist is a Nazi AND an evangelical. Silly me for thinking otherwise in a weak moment. Carry on.

They identify themselves as evangelical when the pollster calls them, please stop being a dumbass. Do you just do this on purpose?
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
windsagio wrote:
What does this mean for the 'evangelical' label in the case where the branch that we've been talking about the most (pro Trump evangelicals) don't do the most basic sacraments of the church?


Many of the sacraments and attending mass/services can be more a part of Catholic or Orthodox tradition than it is lots of Protestant faiths. Wikipedia has a decent summary of the differences between lots of traditions. Evangelical branches of a given faith are often even less interested in the sacrament and more focused on the personal expression of faith.

So this maybe shouldn't be so surprising.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Ya think maybe the evangelical label is being misapplied?

Just because someone is not a leftist does not make them an evangelical?

Nah. Everyone who isn't a leftist is a Nazi AND an evangelical. Silly me for thinking otherwise in a weak moment. Carry on.

I am beginning to believe you don't actually read what you reply to.
The discusiion is about right wing americans who self identify as Evangelical Christians and support Trump but don't go to church.
8 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Salch
United States
Bristol
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's funny that this is just the argument I was having on another thread. Trump saw less support with "religious" evangelicals. I would even say he saw opposition, at least during the primaries, from religious evangelicals Yes I agree two things are at work here. The social pressure to belong in largely evangelical areas. And the fact that Evangelical = Christian Conservative/Republican has somehow become a thing. So if someone is conservative/republican and has any protestant background, they will latch onto the label "evangelical" as it's part of a "power block."

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
United States
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
When Jerry Falwell literally commanded his evangelical followers to embrace the Republican Party at the grassroots level in the 1980s, the evangelical wing of Protestantism started becoming a political entity as well as a religious dialogue. Over the past three decades, the notion of the religiosity of evangelicals has been subsumed by the political dialogue to the point, for many, they are indistinguishable.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've enjoyed learning about this division within Evangelicals and to some extent it's encouraging; it suggests that at least one distinct group of Evangelicals did find Trump's awfulness at least unappealing, which in turn means that he could go too far for them.

At the same time, I think that we should be careful about categorizing people in ways that the data doesn't support. There is a pretty wide gap between "don't go to church" and "don't go to church every week". The poll (unless I'm missing something) doesn't go very deep into the distinction and just draws a binary line between "every week" and "not".

From there we have several responses saying that this group is probably like (anecdote) and assumptions that they must be cultural Christians, not take their faith very seriously, now know much beyond some childhood memories, etc. That's a lot to infer from attending church less than once a week.

Edit to add: Polls that dig into the importance of religion in people's lives do so with a wide range of questions. It would be interesting to see what that data looks like, both wrt Trump and as a general look into the community of self-identified evangelicals. But this isn't it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam I am
United States
Portage
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
What did I tell you...
badge
NO PICKLE!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
At the First Church of Ameri-jesus all teachings are free market based and optional. The sanctimony and persecution complexes are MANDATORY.

Thank You,
Father Libertatus Maximus

Suit up believers the War on Christmas is starting early this year!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
At the same time, I think that we should be careful about categorizing people in ways that the data doesn't support. There is a pretty wide gap between "don't go to church" and "don't go to church every week". The poll (unless I'm missing something) doesn't go very deep into the distinction and just draws a binary line between "every week" and "not".


I pointed this out in another thread, but we also should be careful about assigning too much weight to going to church. Attending services regularly is important to some forms of Christianity (along with other sacraments) may not be important to a good number of evangelicals - the evangelical movement is usually heavily focused on a more personal relationship with God. So attending church might be far less meaningful for them than for Catholics, Orthodox Christians, or Anglicans where attendance is a bigger part of adhering to the faith.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I've enjoyed learning about this division within Evangelicals and to some extent it's encouraging; it suggests that at least one distinct group of Evangelicals did find Trump's awfulness at least unappealing, which in turn means that he could go too far for them.

At the same time, I think that we should be careful about categorizing people in ways that the data doesn't support. There is a pretty wide gap between "don't go to church" and "don't go to church every week". The poll (unless I'm missing something) doesn't go very deep into the distinction and just draws a binary line between "every week" and "not".

From there we have several responses saying that this group is probably like (anecdote) and assumptions that they must be cultural Christians, not take their faith very seriously, now know much beyond some childhood memories, etc. That's a lot to infer from attending church less than once a week.

Edit to add: Polls that dig into the importance of religion in people's lives do so with a wide range of questions. It would be interesting to see what that data looks like, both wrt Trump and as a general look into the community of self-identified evangelicals. But this isn't it.


When I make that assertion, I don't do it in a vacuum with this as the only determining factor. For me, I see a broad pattern of people who are cultural-only or cultural-primarily in their faith and doctrine or belief falls well down the line, and this is just one more data point which supports my observation.

More and more, there are people who lay claim to being Christians without living a life with any indication of those beliefs whatsoever. Cultural Christians. ChrINOs? People who can lay aside the belief that there needs to be a degree of morality to someone who would choose to lead fall into that category for me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn Fox
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
Question everything
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameCrossing wrote:
More and more, there are people who lay claim to being Christians without living a life with any indication of those beliefs whatsoever. Cultural Christians. ChrINOs? People who can lay aside the belief that there needs to be a degree of morality to someone who would choose to lead fall into that category for me.

I agree with this, most people who claim to be Christians aren't really, they just say they are because their parents used to drag them to church. Most of them haven't been to a church in the last decade except for a few weddings, funerals, and the occasional Easter/Christmas mass. The truth is that religious belief is falling apart much faster than most Christians are willing to admit. In a few more generations Christianity will mostly be dead in America, and that is a good thing in my opinion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam I am
United States
Portage
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
What did I tell you...
badge
NO PICKLE!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameCrossing wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I've enjoyed learning about this division within Evangelicals and to some extent it's encouraging; it suggests that at least one distinct group of Evangelicals did find Trump's awfulness at least unappealing, which in turn means that he could go too far for them.

At the same time, I think that we should be careful about categorizing people in ways that the data doesn't support. There is a pretty wide gap between "don't go to church" and "don't go to church every week". The poll (unless I'm missing something) doesn't go very deep into the distinction and just draws a binary line between "every week" and "not".

From there we have several responses saying that this group is probably like (anecdote) and assumptions that they must be cultural Christians, not take their faith very seriously, now know much beyond some childhood memories, etc. That's a lot to infer from attending church less than once a week.

Edit to add: Polls that dig into the importance of religion in people's lives do so with a wide range of questions. It would be interesting to see what that data looks like, both wrt Trump and as a general look into the community of self-identified evangelicals. But this isn't it.


When I make that assertion, I don't do it in a vacuum with this as the only determining factor. For me, I see a broad pattern of people who are cultural-only or cultural-primarily in their faith and doctrine or belief falls well down the line, and this is just one more data point which supports my observation.

More and more, there are people who lay claim to being Christians without living a life with any indication of those beliefs whatsoever. Cultural Christians. ChrINOs? People who can lay aside the belief that there needs to be a degree of morality to someone who would choose to lead fall into that category for me.


The part where this gets weird is that most atheists are more "moral" (secular humanists) than many of these CrINO's. Yet if the CrINO's were surveyed they would most likely respond that the atheists are theologically worse off than homosexuals.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Stiles
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Shaman
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sfox wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
More and more, there are people who lay claim to being Christians without living a life with any indication of those beliefs whatsoever. Cultural Christians. ChrINOs? People who can lay aside the belief that there needs to be a degree of morality to someone who would choose to lead fall into that category for me.

I agree with this, most people who claim to be Christians aren't really, they just say they are because their parents used to drag them to church. Most of them haven't been to a church in the last decade except for a few weddings, funerals, and the occasional Easter/Christmas mass. The truth is that religious belief is falling apart much faster than most Christians are willing to admit. In a few more generations Christianity will mostly be dead in America, and that is a good thing in my opinion.


Religious structures as compared to religious belief.

Soft deism seems to be pretty common.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Goch
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Ya think maybe the evangelical label is being misapplied?

Just because someone is not a leftist does not make them an evangelical?

Nah. Everyone who isn't a leftist is a Nazi AND an evangelical. Silly me for thinking otherwise in a weak moment. Carry on.



They self identify as evangelicals. That's how polls work.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shawn Fox
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
Question everything
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
windsagio wrote:
sfox wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
More and more, there are people who lay claim to being Christians without living a life with any indication of those beliefs whatsoever. Cultural Christians. ChrINOs? People who can lay aside the belief that there needs to be a degree of morality to someone who would choose to lead fall into that category for me.

I agree with this, most people who claim to be Christians aren't really, they just say they are because their parents used to drag them to church. Most of them haven't been to a church in the last decade except for a few weddings, funerals, and the occasional Easter/Christmas mass. The truth is that religious belief is falling apart much faster than most Christians are willing to admit. In a few more generations Christianity will mostly be dead in America, and that is a good thing in my opinion.


Religious structures as compared to religious belief.

Soft deism seems to be pretty common.

A good analogy is comparing someone who was born in Dallas but never watched the Cowboys play vs. someone who's parents had season tickets and went to every Cowboys game. For the first person it is very easy for them to switch to a different sports team later in life, but a child who goes to a lot of Cowboys games is likely to remain a Cowboys fan even when they move to another city. For most people there really isn't much difference between being a sports fan and being a Christian as far as how it shapes their thinking.

The sense of belonging to a group is very often irrational, whether it is a sports team, a religion, or the "white" race, or whatever. These are mostly just things we learn from others as we are growing up rather than being a rational choice.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sfox wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
More and more, there are people who lay claim to being Christians without living a life with any indication of those beliefs whatsoever. Cultural Christians. ChrINOs? People who can lay aside the belief that there needs to be a degree of morality to someone who would choose to lead fall into that category for me.

I agree with this, most people who claim to be Christians aren't really, they just say they are because their parents used to drag them to church. Most of them haven't been to a church in the last decade except for a few weddings, funerals, and the occasional Easter/Christmas mass. The truth is that religious belief is falling apart much faster than most Christians are willing to admit. In a few more generations Christianity will mostly be dead in America, and that is a good thing in my opinion.


Conversely, I would think it would be a very good thing if in a few generations, Christianity were less "popular" but those who lay claim to it actually lived what the faith teaches.

Hell, I think it would be a great thing right now.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.