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Trickerion: Legends of Illusion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Assistant and Apprentice rss

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Barbapapa Barbapou
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Hello,

If I hire one Apprentice and the Assistant the same turn, Can I put directly the next turn this Apprentice on the slot of the Assistant(the next turn) ?
Thank you!
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Lawrence Myers
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Rules of Play wrote:
The Player chooses an Inn Die, and places an unused Character corresponding with the die roll from the his or her supply on the Inn (The Anvil Pig Inn on the main board).....During the "Return Character" phase, the hired Character is added to the Player's team. If it was a Specialist, its Board Extension is also added to the player's Game Board.

Edit: added Return Character sub phase quote that is part of End of Turn phase.
Rules of Play wrote:
Return Characters: Every Character (including the ones hired during the turn) is returned to their owner’s Game Board. If a Specialist was hired, its respective Board Extension is added to its owner’s Game Board.


Magician Wookbook wrote:
Note 1: If you hire a Specialist from the Downtown, you get the respective wooden Character disk and Board Extension only during the "End Turn" phase. You do NOT receive that Specialist's extra resource - that's only for your chosen starting Specialist.

The team the hired Character is added too is the Player's main board. The Specialist gets its own board after you have added your new Hired Character to your team. The next round you would have to spend 1 Workshop action to move the newly hired Character to the Assistant board.

Edit: If you adhere to strict order of actions of the "Return Character" sub phase it says return the newly hired apprentice to the player board 1st, and then the Specialist board is added to the Player board. If one interprets that these two actions are simultaneous then One could deduce that the Apprentice would be able to be put on the Specialist board when returned.
Edit: answered below by a message quoted from the Designer; No, the Apprentice cannot be placed on an Assistant Specialist board that was bought on the same turn at the Return Characters/End of turn phase.
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James J

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I have pondered this same question. I don't believe the first quote clears it up, and the second quote is unrelated.

Rephrased, the question would be: do all characters hired in one turn get placed simultaneously, or can you place one before the other? Hiring an Assistant and an Apprentice is really the only time this would matter, as we already know a newly-hired Apprentice may be placed on the free spot if the Assistant board extension is already in place.

Personally, I do agree with the answer posted above. I think hiring (and placing board extensions) happens simultaneously for all characters hired that turn. So you could not place the Apprentice on the free slot because you are simultaneously placing the Assistant extension down. You would have to use an action next turn to move the Apprentice there instead.

But an official ruling couldn't hurt.
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Con Sequence
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We always play like that, but I cannot remember why.
 
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Barry Miller
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In another post, the designer confirmed that a newly hired Apprentice can be added directly to the Assistant's board. You do NOT have to put the Apprentice on the main Workshop board first, followed by an action to move it to the Assistant. (If required, I can take the time to find, and link that post).

So in the situation presented by the OP for this thread, it's really a matter of timing. I'd interpret the timing to be:
You first place the Assistant board next to your Workshop, which then allows you to place the Apprentice on your Assistant's board.


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James J

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bgm1961 wrote:

In another post, the designer confirmed that a newly hired Apprentice can be added directly to the Assistant's board. You do NOT have to put the Apprentice on the main Workshop board first, followed by an action to move it to the Assistant. (If required, I can take the time to find, and link that post).

So in the situation presented by the OP for this thread, it's really a matter of timing. I'd interpret the timing to be:
You first place the Assistant board next to your Workshop, which then allows you to place the Apprentice on your Assistant's board.




Emphasis mine. That's the bit we're trying to nail down. Right now, it's a matter of interpretation.

I think you might be referencing this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1513403/question-concerning...

But that describes a situation where an assistant was hired during one turn and was already placed prior to the turn where the apprentice was hired. Hopefully we're all clear on that. It's the simultaneous placement when they are hired during the same turn that gets a bit fuzzy.
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Patrick G.
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I would think that you can't actually do multiple things at the same instant... so you would need to do them one at a time. That is an assumption but a fairly standard one in the industry. In these cases the active player usually gets to choose which order in things happen.

Until I see an official FAQ on it.. that would be how I would play it. Being a Euro at heart I see no reason not to reward a player who gets to use such a powerful action twice on the same turn.
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Barry Miller
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japester1 wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

In another post, the designer confirmed that a newly hired Apprentice can be added directly to the Assistant's board. You do NOT have to put the Apprentice on the main Workshop board first, followed by an action to move it to the Assistant. (If required, I can take the time to find, and link that post).

So in the situation presented by the OP for this thread, it's really a matter of timing. I'd interpret the timing to be:
You first place the Assistant board next to your Workshop, which then allows you to place the Apprentice on your Assistant's board.




Emphasis mine. That's the bit we're trying to nail down. Right now, it's a matter of interpretation.

I think you might be referencing this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1513403/question-concerning...

But that describes a situation where an assistant was hired during one turn and was already placed prior to the turn where the apprentice was hired. Hopefully we're all clear on that. It's the simultaneous placement when they are hired during the same turn that gets a bit fuzzy.

Yes, mostly. I agree 98% with your entire post. The 2% that I don't agree with, is that Viktor's reply in that thread (and thanks for finding it, BTW) doesn't say anything about the Specialist having to already be placed before the current turn begins. All he says that a newly hired [Apprentice] may be put on an empty specialist [Assistant] spot.

That's all he says. which leaves a lot of room for interpretation in this case. Thusly my interpretation is that there should be no reason that an Assistant and an Apprentice can't be hired on the same turn, and that the Apprentice can be placed on the Assistant's board.

But yes, it is after all, only my interpretation.
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Con Sequence
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Well, we only call it interpretation since there is no explicit timing rule for the End Turn Phase concerning newly hired characters, don't we?! Usually I'm going with not adding / assuming rules to open interpretation possibilities (though I got proven wrong taking that approach in the past). That's why I would keep playing like before anyway, placing the new Apprentice directly on the new Assistant slot.

Since this is an edge case that may have been forgotten in the rulebook, it could only be clarified afterwards. But I guess the probability of that timing / sort order is not restricted, is a little bit higher, simply because there is no timing restriction in the rules at all.
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Désirée Greverud
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seqcon wrote:
Well, we only call it interpretation since there is no explicit timing rule for the End Turn Phase concerning newly hired characters, don't we?! Usually I'm going with not adding / assuming rules to open interpretation possibilities (though I got proven wrong taking that approach in the past). That's why I would keep playing like before anyway, placing the new Apprentice directly on the new Assistant slot.

Since this is an edge case that may have been forgotten in the rulebook, it could only be clarified afterwards. But I guess the probability of that timing / sort order is not restricted, is a little bit higher, simply because there is no timing restriction in the rules at all.
since the Assistant board, the assistant token and the apprentice token are all "coming home" at the same time, I would think you could set them however you'd like (within the scope of the rules) so putting both tokens on the new Assistant board seems perfectly logical to me
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Adrian Schmidt
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DragonsDream wrote:
seqcon wrote:
Well, we only call it interpretation since there is no explicit timing rule for the End Turn Phase concerning newly hired characters, don't we?! Usually I'm going with not adding / assuming rules to open interpretation possibilities (though I got proven wrong taking that approach in the past). That's why I would keep playing like before anyway, placing the new Apprentice directly on the new Assistant slot.

Since this is an edge case that may have been forgotten in the rulebook, it could only be clarified afterwards. But I guess the probability of that timing / sort order is not restricted, is a little bit higher, simply because there is no timing restriction in the rules at all.
since the Assistant board, the assistant token and the apprentice token are all "coming home" at the same time, I would think you could set them however you'd like (within the scope of the rules) so putting both tokens on the new Assistant board seems perfectly logical to me


I agree with the four comments above mine. Typically, when no order is specified, you can choose yourself. That's the assumption I'll go with until an official answer says the opposite
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Titus M
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Of course everyone is welcome to play as they like, but I think that this is a great question and I'm still hoping to see an official ruling on it.

Yes, it all comes to your board at the same time but (as done above) one could argue that those two separate returns being resolved simultaneously requires the apprentice to enter on the player board. The assistant and his board do not yet exist at the time of the trigger, and so cannot house the new apprentice token. Robinson Crusoe uses a similar ruling constantly, and in a much more obtrusive manner.

This is probably how I would have written the rules, as it mirrors the rules for the other specialists: if the engineer is bought mid-game he needs to wait til next round to pick up a trick (or have one moved); if you hire the manager you then have to wait til the next round to place goods on his board.

I think it makes sense to force the assistant to wait before engaging his power as well.
 
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Lutz Pietschker
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Quote:
…one could argue…  Robinson Crusoe uses a similar ruling constantly, and in a much more obtrusive manner.

One could argue that the "unobtrusiveness" (a.k.a. absence) of such a rule simply means that there is no such rule, thus leaving it to the player to place the new workers in any order he/she likes. I am firmly with the assumption that if the rule does not forbid it, it is allowed, in particular when talking about a rulebook that otherwise does not give the impression that they tended to forget things.

Quote:
…as it mirrors the rules for the other specialists…

But you see the difference, don't you? For the others you cannot place the new trick/components immediately after the buy because the specialist is not yet in play, so the question does not even arise for them. To conclude by reference to a completely different case does not help the argument, IMHO.
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Titus M
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I was not stating the rule existed in Trickerion, just in RC. I point it out to show the precedence of such a ruling. If you've not played that game, elements you have earned aren't available to you for several stages of gameplay (making their absence "obtrusive"). Of course such a rule is not present in Trickerion's manual. Hence the thread.

PunTheHun wrote:

But you see the difference, don't you? For the others you cannot place the new trick/components immediately after the buy because the specialist is not yet in play, so the question does not even arise for them.


This seems silly. Your argument that the assistant could gain the apprentice in the same round, and thus is different from the others, assumes that he's considered 'in play' when characters are returned. If we assume instead that he's not... well then he would operate like the others.

 
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Titus M
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To put it another way, hiring the engineer or manager leaves you with no way to utilize their board until the next round. Allowing the assistant to snatch up an apprentice upon hiring mid-game neuters that cost for them, making the other two specialists more attractive as starting choices.

It's definitely not a serious imbalance, but it gives the apprentice this unique status as the specialist that can enter play already housing its bonus tokens.
 
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Désirée Greverud
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titusm wrote:
To put it another way, hiring the engineer or manager leaves you with no way to utilize their board until the next round. Allowing the assistant to snatch up an apprentice upon hiring mid-game neuters that cost for them, making the other two specialists more attractive as starting choices.

It's definitely not a serious imbalance, but it gives the apprentice this unique status as the specialist that can enter play already housing its bonus tokens.

except this would only happen in the rare case of 1 player hiring both the Assistant and the Apprentice in the same round. This requires the dice to show these 2 possibilities and the person having assigned their magician downtown, getting there first and having 6 action points to spend. Hardly unbalancing and I doubt anyone would take such a fringe case into consideration when choosing their starting specialist.
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Titus M
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I agree that it is a corner case, and I don't really mind if Viktor and Richard choose one way or the other. But there should be a rule for it, and I don't think ignoring it or each player house-ruling on their own are good solutions.
 
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Barry Miller
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To present a thematic justification, simply imagine the owner of a business hiring a mid-level supervisor (Mary) and a lower employee (John) on the same day. Both Mary & John meet with the owner that day and the owner turns to John and says, "John, meet Mary. She's going to be your boss".

Both are hired at the same time, and both report to the same area at the same time. Considering that each turn in Trickerion is a week of time, I don't see how hiring an Assistant and an Apprentice on the same turn and placing them together at the end of the turn is an issue.


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Titus M
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It certainly isn't a thematic issue! Thematically you might tell them that, but still need to give them some time in the workshop to train John (or coerce him to work for no money? I'm not sure how the assistant pulls this off).

And I realize that everyone else in this thread seems to think the placement should be up to the player, and I get why. Personally, I think it would make the design more consistent if we have to wait til the next round for the assistant's board to be used. But it really isn't up to us, so I hope we get noticed by the designers.

I hope you all don't mind my stubbornness I really love the game, and just wanted to give my take.
 
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Lutz Pietschker
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titusm wrote:
…I'm not sure how the assistant pulls this off…

I confess I had a completely different story in mind about why the apprentice would work for free. devil
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Barbapapa Barbapou
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Hi All,

I asked Viktor the question and he answered:

Hi,

Sorry for my late reply! To answer the questions, you do not have to choose a performance, it's optional (hence the "may" in the sentence), and unfortunately you cannot place the new Apprentice on the Assistant's board if both are hired on the same turn, since you receive the Assistant (and his/her board) only at the end of the turn, when you retrieve your helpers from the board.

I hope this helps!

Best regards,

Viktor
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Con Sequence
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Man. Disproved again.

Thanks for sharing the official clarification!
 
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Désirée Greverud
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seqcon wrote:
Man. Disproved again.

Thanks for sharing the official clarification!
not the way I would have gone with it, but if that's the officially ruling, I can at least understand it
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James J

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Yes, thanks for clearing that up. I ruled correctly on both in my game, but I am still surprised that performances are optional. Glad to have a definite answer!
 
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Titus M
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Thanks for contacting the designers Barbapapa. After they didn't chime in here I just chalked it up to Anachrony-based chaos and figured this thread would drift off without a ruling.
 
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