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Star Wars: Imperial Assault» Forums » Rules

Subject: Cleave timing question... rss

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Craig S.
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Let's say Cleave is added while a hero is attacking. The attack defeats the target, then a Final Blast interrupt defeats the hero during the last step of the attack, forcing their activation to end. Does the cleave happen?
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John Henry
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The surge is spent on the cleave in step 5, and the damage of the cleave is applied at the same time as the damage from the main attack (step 7), so before the enemy unit is defeated.

I think.
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Pasi Ojala
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Target suffers damage during step 7 of the attack. Final Blast or Parting Shot happen during step 7 of the attack.

Blast, Cleave, and condition keywords are resolved after the attack resolves.

If the attacker is no longer on the map, there cannot be any figure the attacker could target for an attack, thus Cleave cannot be resolved.

Blast would be resolved normally.

If the target suffered damage, condition keywords would give the conditions unless their target has been defeated during the attack.

Ability Resolution order during attacks
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Craig S.
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a1bert wrote:
Target suffers damage during step 7 of the attack. Final Blast or Parting Shot happen during step 7 of the attack.

Blast, Cleave, and condition keywords are resolved after the attack resolves.

If the attacker is no longer on the map, there cannot be any figure the attacker could target for an attack, thus Cleave cannot be resolved.

Blast would be resolved normally.

If the target suffered damage, condition keywords would give the conditions unless their target has been defeated during the attack.

Ability Resolution order during attacks


Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. The attacker is a hero in a campaign getting defeated for the first time, so they are still on the map after being defeated, but the activation ends. I've updated the OP...
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Gustav W
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I can't find a rule that cleave and blast shouldn't be resolved immediately upon suffering damage, ie step 7?
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Pasi Ojala
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csouth154 wrote:
The attacker is a hero in a campaign getting defeated for the first time, so they are still on the map after being defeated, but the activation ends.

Now, that's an interesting question, which I think is easily resolved by the defeat rules using the word "immediately". I don't think you can interpret immediately as anything else than immediately. So, no after attack resolves abilities would get resolved.
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Webbe wrote:
I can't find a rule that cleave and blast shouldn't be resolved immediately upon suffering damage, ie step 7?

See the Reference: Keywords card.

(Impatiently waiting for FAQ 2.3 for three weeks straight.)
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Craig S.
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a1bert wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
The attacker is a hero in a campaign getting defeated for the first time, so they are still on the map after being defeated, but the activation ends.

Now, that's an interesting question, which I think is easily resolved by the defeat rules using the word "immediately". I don't think you can interpret immediately as anything else than immediately. So, no after attack resolves abilities would get resolved.


See, that was my first thought, as well...but then I asked myself whether or not an activation ending means the attack doesn't resolve. Does the process of attack steps get terminated by the end of the activation? We know attack steps can happen outside of an activation, after all. And if an attack can resolve and the figure is still on the board even if the activstion ends in the last step, then what stops the cleave from happening?
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Nick T
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Webbe wrote:
I can't find a rule that cleave and blast shouldn't be resolved immediately upon suffering damage, ie step 7?


Actually, it's the last bullet under "Surges"
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Gustav W
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My SOP when the rulebook differs from reference charts, summaries, reference cards etc. is to follow the rulebook. It's very common that they are wrong.

But I get where you are coming from, the card shows the intent.

This was the first time I read one of those cards for this game btw

nicktenny wrote:
Actually, it's the last bullet under "Surges"


Great! thumbsup

Still leaves the question of when blast/cleave don't come from surges.

But again, the intent is very clear (it's hard to write rules).
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Pasi Ojala
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Webbe wrote:
My SOP when the rulebook differs from reference charts, summaries, reference cards etc. is to follow the rulebook. It's very common that they are wrong.

There is a difference between differing (contradiction) and omission.

There is no contradiction between the rulebook and reference cards (even without the rule hiding in the Surges chapter).

The rules reference guide says that it overrides other rules, but omission of a rule does not override a rule listed elsewhere.

Anyway....

If the activation would end before the attack is resolved, you would be in a no-mans land. There is no figure activating. Also, if Jyn is the hero becoming wounded, can she now use Opportunist and Sidewinder normally?
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Gustav W
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a1bert wrote:
Webbe wrote:
My SOP when the rulebook differs from reference charts, summaries, reference cards etc. is to follow the rulebook. It's very common that they are wrong.

There is a difference between differing (contradiction) and omission.

There is no contradiction between the rulebook and reference cards (even without the rule hiding in the Surges chapter).

The rules reference guide says that it overrides other rules, but omission of a rules does not override a rule listed elsewhere.

I fully agree.

It still annoys me that they have rules on reference cards and not in the rulebook. That's a really bad way of presenting the rules for a game.
As you say it's an omission that should have been corrected in the errata.
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Nick T
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The "Abilities" section says that "If the requirements cannot be met, the ability cannot be performed".

For cleave, the requirements are that it is on a figure that would be an eligible target for an attack and that you have paid the cost (a surge or other cost).

I do not see "during your activation" as a requirement. It may be that this is so out of the box that they didn't include it, but based on the rules, all requirements have been met.
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Pasi Ojala
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Without the immediately I would say all abilities triggered by that point get resolved before the activation ends. The thing is, the defeat happens during step 7, and thus the attack has not resolved yet.

If the immediately is red herring and it actually means "activation ends as soon as the current ability is performed", then the attack would be performed fully. But would the Attack action also be resolved fully? Would Bleeding trigger or not?



(Abilities spanning from during an activation to no-one's activation is something I would not want to consider being possible.)
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Nick T
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a1bert wrote:
Without the immediately I would say all abilities triggered by that point get resolved before the activation ends. The thing is, the defeat happens during step 7, and thus the attack has not resolved yet.

If the immediately is red herring and it actually means "activation ends as soon as the current ability is performed", then the attack would be performed fully. But would the Attack action also be resolved fully? Would Bleeding trigger or not?



(Abilities spanning from during an activation to no-one's activation is something I would not want to consider being possible.)


Some great points. Especially the bleed one. If cleave does not apply because the action did not resolve, bleed wouldn't trigger either.
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Craig S.
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a1bert wrote:
Without the immediately I would say all abilities triggered by that point get resolved before the activation ends. The thing is, the defeat happens during step 7, and thus the attack has not resolved yet.


But are we sure the activation ending stops the attack from resolving? Nothing stops attack steps from happening while the attacker is not activating...

If the figure is still on the board after being defeated and the attack resolves, why can't it cleave?
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Pasi Ojala
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Ah, in addition, Bleeding only applies during your activation, so if the activation ends before the action, you get away from triggering Bleeding but get all the benefits of resolving the action and performing the attack.

Admitted, it's not a big issue not suffering one strain if the hero was just defeated.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I agree with Nick. The activation ending will not stop the attack ending. Blast and Cleave will resolve normally.

In the case of Jyn, Sidewinder would work normally. Opportunist could not be used as Jyn would be wounded during the attack and hence does not have the Opportunist ability after the attack resolves.

Edit: Wow, that's a lot o posts in the meantime... Still, it seems we are in agreement now for the most part.

On Bleeding, that is an odd quirk, but fair enough.
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Pasi Ojala
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So, when the attacking hero is defeated, the activation ends, allowing Onar to trigger Keep Up to enter a space adjacent to a hostile small figure and uses Rush to push that figure into Cleave range (still during the attacking hero's activation). Then Cleave is resolved outside of the attacker's activation.

Or does the activation still end only after the attack is performed?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Rules as written, the activation ends before the attack does. Yes, Onar would work as you suggest.

Yes, you could errata something to make this work a bit more logically, canceling the remainder of any current action on defeat, perhaps. The situation is going to be so rare that there is not much point, though.
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