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A Song of Ice & Fire: Tabletop Miniatures Game – Stark vs Lannister Starter Set» Forums » General

Subject: This or Runewars miniatures Game rss

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Ukko Kaarto
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I'm happy to see big board game players enter the miniatures games battlefields.

But which will take the crown, this one or FFG's runewars miniatures Game?
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Mark Ogilvie
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I hope Runewars does well just because I like FFG, but that setting really is about as bland as it gets for me. At least this comes with some built in character.
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Dusty 27
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My money, literally, is on Runewars. I think I will pick up both as ASoI&F gives you a decent number of models in the starter but I also am excited to see where they both are in five years. Runewars has likely more spellcaster elements in it and that is a major motivation for me.

There really is very little information on ASoI&F so its kinda of hard to speculate. I think it uses a D6 system if I was reading closely enough but I could be wrong.
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Michael
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Hard to tell without a SOFAI rulebook. But Runewers will likely continue to be unique with it's hidden/simultaneous action selection a la X-Wing.

Though on the organized play side, FFG has been good about promoting it, and CMON is just starting out in promoting Organized play.
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StefanK
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What's Organised play?
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Which of the two has the better plastic and/or rules is anyone's guess at this point. As of now I can see pros and cons with both, but we really don't know enough about this game to judge it yet. As for face value interest: On the one hand ASoIaF has both a setting and visuals I love, while Runewars has both a setting and visuals I merely like well enough. (Verisimilitude is a big factor for their rankings in both.) But on the other, playing only human vs. human is less appealing to me than having multiple species, and my budget's too limited for both - not to mention me keeping meaning to get into both Firestorm games.

Kegla wrote:
What's Organised play?

Tournaments, basically.
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Both FFG and CMON have a loyal fanbase. But FFG's base are boardgamers, who tend to dislike assembly and painting, and RW requires assembly and painting. Meanwhile, CMON's wargame does not require assembly or painting (each faction's a different color as well), and CMON has a far better reputation for detailed miniatures. FFG's Terrinoth IP has not been developed, and might as well be a throwaway generic fantasy setting. CMON's licensed GoT, which will at least attract attention from miniature wargamers and boardgamers, and would justify buying more miniatures that are different from the buyer's existing collection of miniatures.

Miniature wargamers who do like assembly and painting already have game systems to choose from, such as Kings of War, and have spent *hundreds* of both dollars and time on their armies. RW and GoT have many proprietary components, so a new player will have to start over with purchasing and painting. RW and GoT are also just as expensive as other miniature wargames. Miniature wargaming forum Dakka has already given RW the thumbs-down, and you can see for yourself which of the two are on the Hotness.

How long either line will survive... I dunno. FFG's dropped entire game lines before, and CMON pretty much has a "fire and forget" model of their games, although CMON showed regular retail releases for this game. CMON's first miniatures wargame was Wrath of Kings, and I don't know how much support it's getting, if any at all.

Frostgrave has been well-received by Dakka, since it doesn't have the high costs of most "lifestyle" miniatures wargames (you can use your own figures, for one thing), and it's the flagship product for its publishers, Osprey Games and North Star Military Figures. North Star just finished its "Nickstarter" pre-order, where they even shipped additional material (Frostgrave even has a solo campaign) and miniatures right after the campaign was over.

GeekDad: https://geekdad.com/2017/03/the-frostgrave-folio-joseph-mccu...
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Reuben Lam
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FFG already has a GoT mass miniature battle game in Battle Lore and the Battle of Westeros spin off. Many of the faction mini boxes are on clearance too.

However given the two. I'd go with Runewars as I think the GoT licensing will make the cost of those minis for all the fire and ice factions a lot more.
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We're looking at the future, though.

It's a short thread, but other BGG'ers see Battle Lore: Battle of Westeros no longer being supported because CMON has the license: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1746294/abandon-all-hope

And a longer, older well-thumbed thread back to 2010 about how FFG isn't supporting Battle Lore: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/551272/biggest-disappointme...

Again, the situation is that, if a company has multiple game lines, they'll support the best-selling most profitable ones. That means for FFG, it's Star Wars and Arkham Horror. For SJG, it's Munchkin. For GW, it's Warhammer 40K. For WotC, it's Magic the Gathering. Sure, they'll release other products (they're still game companies), but, if they need to increase the profits, it's the less popular games that get cut, regardless of whether or not there's a fanbase. This applies to CMON as well. While I don't see any game line that stands out with CMON's range of games, Eric Lang's games do consistently well, and, if CMON's GoT miniatures aren't as profitable over the next several years, CMON will eventually discontinue support the game, much like FFG has done for Battlelore (although, for all we know, the license will revert to whomever and we'll see Battlelore back again...).
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Good question - I'm thinking ASoFI. Check out "Lead Adventure Forum" - its a friendly forum for miniature painters/wargamers to post up pictures of their miniatures. Under the "Fantasy" forum there are plenty of projects where wargamers have used historical miniatures to paint (huge) armies from the different houses of Westeros. If CMON can tap into that market they are on a winner. I know wargamers who will spend hundreds of dollars on an army (don't tell my wife but I am in that category sadly....). I love FFG and their products but Terrinoth is just a bit too vanilla, I wish it success but I just don;t think it will compete.
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Mordjinn wrote:

But which will take the crown, this one or FFG's runewars miniatures Game?


I'm still not sure who RuneWars is for.

It's not for people who are scared of miniatures games - it has assembly and painting required, and it's as expensive as other games (with minis, from pictures, that aren't as good as what's already available).

It's not for miniatures gamers - there's no reason for them to abandon systems that they've already invested a ton of money in. The rules system would have to be significantly better than anything out there.

It's not for all the fans of a fantasy setting, as the number of people who are invested in the Terrinoth setting is fairly low.

So my money's on the license and miniatures quality from CMoN, with the design backing of Eric Lang, winning out. The pre-assembled, color-coded miniatures also will appeal to those who avoid miniatures games because of those issues. I'd imagine there will be a ton of plastic in the core game for the price, especially compared to FFG. And I see CMoN investing in this in a way I don't see FFG doing with RuneWars, because they have so many other ongoing projects.
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Alex Brock
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Idaho11 wrote:


I'm still not sure who RuneWars is for.

It's not for people who are scared of miniatures games - it has assembly and painting required, and it's as expensive as other games (with minis, from pictures, that aren't as good as what's already available).

It's not for miniatures gamers - there's no reason for them to abandon systems that they've already invested a ton of money in. The rules system would have to be significantly better than anything out there.

It's not for all the fans of a fantasy setting, as the number of people who are invested in the Terrinoth setting is fairly low.

So my money's on the license and miniatures quality from CMoN, with the design backing of Eric Lang, winning out. The pre-assembled, color-coded miniatures also will appeal to those who avoid miniatures games because of those issues. I'd imagine there will be a ton of plastic in the core game for the price, especially compared to FFG. And I see CMoN investing in this in a way I don't see FFG doing with RuneWars, because they have so many other ongoing projects.
These seems like the answer to me, barring bad rules systems.
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Ukko Kaarto
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Good discussion, thanks everybody.

I play both miniature and board games and here are my personal and very subjective pros and cons for both games (based on the info available):

RUNEWARS MINIATURES GAME

PROS
- Interesting and innovative games mechanics with X-Wing type disks.
- Nice looking miniatures
- Fantastic races
- Cool big monsters
- Magic

CONS
- The setting is as bland and generic boring fantasy setting as it can get
- Assembly needed for miniatures
- Core box has a very limited and small army to begin with


ASOIAF TABLETOP MINIATURE GAME

PROS
- Great looking miniatures
- No assembly required
- Kickstarter will most likely push out very good size starter armies

CONS
- I love the books and the tv-series, but the setting isn't really interesting to me when it comes to games. Somehow I feel all the important stories have been told already and there's no room for imagination. Also on its base it is just humans vs humans with a random Giant (and a dragon) thrown in. Maybe if the undead of the north are one of the expansion races it might get interesting. Or maybe the reason for my gaming dislike of AGoT is that there are no elves which are my go to race

- The system (or what we know of it) seems like very generic d6 based miniature gaming system. Nothing special.


It is hard to say which one comes out on top. I was planning on buying the RuneWars starter to test the game, but now ASOIAFTMG announcement will keep me from doing that until I see more of both games. In the end there's a high chance I will not jump on either and just keep on playing the games we already have.
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jef stuyck
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Tbh, I don't think this will be the most awesome game ever. And The reason i say this, is that EVERY faction is human. There is only 1 faction that is completely different and that is the walkers.

I love a song of ice & fire, but as a miniature game... no, just no.

Also no assembly required ( which is a must ), because of this the miniatures will be very low quality compared to EVERY other miniature game.

Boardgamers aren't willing to pay 30-40€ for 10 miniatures for their army and the miniature gamers want high quality miniatures that they can assemble themselves for their money so also a very doubtful thing.

I'm willing to bet that this will be the same as Besieged. Forgotten.

But we will see.
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Chris Marlow
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Mordjinn wrote:
I'm happy to see big board game players enter the miniatures games battlefields.

But which will take the crown, this one or FFG's runewars miniatures Game?


This looks really attractive at first doesn't it - all the marvelous characters from Game of Thrones, what's not to like .
But for me it would be like GW's Lord of the Rings minis game. An amazing setting, but after you've re-enacted a couple of classic scenes from the books/films, what else can you do? The history of Westeros is fully fleshed out, doesn't feel right to go making up new bits does it.
So you're left having to ignore the fluff really, and if you do that you might as well choose RuneWars, which has poor fluff, but probably much better game mechanics?
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Wasn't one of the complaints about the original Battle lore the lack of more "exotic" factions? Human vs Human in a fantasy setting can only go so far.
 
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John Middleton
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checkedout wrote:
Wasn't one of the complaints about the original Battle lore the lack of more "exotic" factions? Human vs Human in a fantasy setting can only go so far.


That's the problem with all of Game of Thrones.

You may as well get into Ancient or actual Medieval minis and learn something as well as play something.


The Battleore Westeros game was, arguably, on of the best implementations of the Command and Colors system and it fizzled.
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Kevin Outlaw
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DegenerateElite wrote:


That's the problem with all of Game of Thrones.

You may as well get into Ancient or actual Medieval minis and learn something as well as play something.


The Battleore Westeros game was, arguably, on of the best implementations of the Command and Colors system and it fizzled.


I have the Battles of Westeros core set on my shelf, and despite really liking it, I rarely play it. That's why I'm not particularly excited for this.

Well... one of the reasons. I'm also not keen on the idea of painting a lot of identical rank and file humans. And I don't feel compelled to play as characters from the setting, because most of them are bastards. I'm just not keen on running an army with hero-level characters that are rapists and baby killers. That's the kind of setting I prefer to watch from the outside, if you know what I mean.

Also, as I understand it, CMoN Kickstarters tend to include a lot of exclusive content. If they lean on that to shift units, they may hobble the system before it even takes off.

I am, of course, going to keep a close eye on it though.
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One thing about the assembly on Runewars that may help out with the people who don't like putting minis together is that it seems to be pretty low level. Each piece is supposed to just snap into place without need for glue.
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Johannes Benedikt
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Imo Runewars the miniature game is in deep trouble, although it depends a bit on the pricing of this game.

Runewars has a generic fantasy theme. Given I like the universe and even I'm not really interested. This is partly because FFG isn't banking on the strength of Terrinoth universe with Runewars: The possibility of highly varied units with thematic characteristics and individual strengths and weaknesses, which lead to the very assymmetric feel of the original runewars.

So far you have generic melee/archer/cavalerie and only one expensive individual unit. Maybe they up their game with the other 2 factions, but it's pretty unlikely imo.


Turn around to this game:
-) Beloved IP that gives much more theme to this game, even with pretty generic units than Runewars can manage.

-) Star-game-designer Eric Lang will make this game much more interesting for hobby-board gamers than FFGs seemingly catering to miniature gamers. Even I'm really interested if they manage to come up with something that gets away with all the measuring inconviniences... let's say I have a lot of faith in Eric that he will (given how elagently he streamlined his last game designs)

-) Already announced plethora of scenarios that, if they manage to tie them into the story will truly lead to memorable gaming sessions, which Runewars can't achieve, regardless of how hard they try.

-) If this gets a Kickstarter, this will be one of the games that will truly benefit from the CMON KS-format: A game where it's totally worth it to get as many miniatures as possible. Paying for base game and an expansion up front and get the content of a base game and 2-3 expansions? This model is made for this game format. This will mean this game will most likely be initially cheaper and feature better minis than FFG's game.


From all this factors, the Runewars miniature game is on the risk of never going off imo.
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Price will be a big issue. FFG still has their lame "punish online retailers who offer discounts" policy in place...that will inflate the cost of expansions(and the core set).

CMoN will operate under normal online retail conditions, allowing places like CoolStuff, Amazon, MiniatureMarket/etc. to offer significant discounts on their line.
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Two advantages this has over RW-
A) FFG killed almost all of its mini games, exception of star wars, within a couple of years.
You have to be a big fan of the game to jump in, instead of waiting and seeing if more content will be released.

B) FFG business Plan didn't account for this game. It is likely that it will eat some of RW sales, the chance of FFG killing RW within a couple of years just increased.

FFG is RW worst enemy - like it was for battle lore, BoW, etc... CMoN have good record and hopefully deliver.
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Michael Shinall wrote:
DA_Maz wrote:


-) Star-game-designer Eric Lang will make this game much more interesting for hobby-board gamers than FFGs seemingly catering to miniature gamers. Even I'm really interested if they manage to come up with something that gets away with all the measuring inconviniences... let's say I have a lot of faith in Eric that he will (given how elagently he streamlined his last game designs)



Eric isn't the designer, I am. Though Eric, like the rest of the CMON team, have input, but my experience with tabletop wargames is the most of our team (I designed our previous wargames, Dark Age (2013 edition) and Wrath of Kings).



That's actually perhaps a... well, a questionable thing. Dark Age had great miniatures (especially the new stuff), but the game itself was incredibly simplistic. Wrath of Kings was so clunky I had visions of 40k 2E in my head. Alternating activations is good, but Wrath actually ruined it by forcing "balance" in how it ended the round, meaning the otherwise flexible leadership structure was ultimately a waste unless your opponent answered with a similar splinter group.

I hope this one is good, because I have no cares about GoT and could play it without any idea who the hell the characters are or the unlikelihood of situation X. But it would require a free rulebook to be pushed out there before i even touched it.

RuneWars as a system looks fun, but jesus, so expensive. I can fund a full tournament army for most skirmish systems for the cost of like two starter boxes at 15% off. I'd be more likely to buy the core box and just proxy units. Those bases are also stupid big.
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Johannes Benedikt
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Michael Shinall wrote:
DA_Maz wrote:


-) Star-game-designer Eric Lang will make this game much more interesting for hobby-board gamers than FFGs seemingly catering to miniature gamers. Even I'm really interested if they manage to come up with something that gets away with all the measuring inconviniences... let's say I have a lot of faith in Eric that he will (given how elagently he streamlined his last game designs)



Eric isn't the designer, I am. Though Eric, like the rest of the CMON team, have input, but my experience with tabletop wargames is the most of our team (I designed our previous wargames, Dark Age (2013 edition) and Wrath of Kings).



Sry, I didn't mean to disrespect you. I just saw the trailer and Eric Lang was in it, so I thought he is the designer.

Yet you designed Rum&Bones 2nd edition, which I heard lots of praise for. Just keep the lessons in mind you learned with Rum&Bones first edition and I'm positive that this game will get good - I just don't think this game will be on everyone's radar as would have been the case, if Eric designed it. This is only a statement about the hype this game would recieve based on so many fantastic previous games by Eric Lang, it doesn't mean you can't do as well as him and Xenoshift and R&B2 certainly is a good track-record, just not as well known as Eric's Games.

Good Luck!
 
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Well... one of the reasons. I'm also not keen on the idea of painting a lot of identical rank and file humans. And I don't feel compelled to play as characters from the setting, because most of them are bastards. I'm just not keen on running an army with hero-level characters that are rapists and baby killers. That's the kind of setting I prefer to watch from the outside, if you know what I mean.


You could paint them green and call them orcs! laugh

Yeah, I see what you mean. IP attracts attention, but can be a turn off as well. I mean, if you're looking for a science fiction spaceship game but don't like Star Wars, then what? Overlook the IP -- which you're paying for? Bad enough being a "I don't care for miniatures" gamer looking at an Eric Lang CMON game. Anyway, skip the KS and wait for the reviews. Say your viewpoint of the IP if the reviewer doesn't address it.

Quote:
Dark Age had great miniatures (especially the new stuff), but the game itself was incredibly simplistic. Wrath of Kings was so clunky I had visions of 40k 2E in my head.


If you didn't like the designer's previous games, that's also perfectly good reason to wait for the reviews, particularly when the publisher offers a game with a high buy-in price. (As said, with miniature wargames, some have you buying proprietary game and miniature components, some don't.) It's taking me over *three months* to assemble and paint a Kings of War Orcs Army, and I'd like to use it in as many different game systems as possible.

With all that being said, I think it's *great* that CMON is releasing a miniatures wargame that gamers don't have to assemble before playing. Mantic has a few as well, although I don't know how many of them are "rank and file". Also, thanks to Michael for presence on the BGG forums!
 
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