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Subject: How has the KS value changed (poll) rss

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John Sallay
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For reference, the original campaign had for $100,
a few boards, cardboard tokens, meeples, dice, 137 basic cards, a 48 card prologue quest, and 3 x 243 card quests.
It now has, 4 player boards, wooden tokens, minis ( and a yellow meeple ), an additional 246 card quest, and 38 extra cards.

The total card count has increased from 914 to 1198. I am just curious as to how the stretch goals have impacted people's opinions.

I don't play a lot of card intense games, so raw card count doesn't excite me as much as it may some of you.

Poll: Thunderstone Kickstarter Value
I'm curious how people feel about the value of the kickstarter now vs at the beginning of the campaign. I've been following it from the beginning and was kind of underwhelmed to begin with. With the current stretch goals included it looks like a much better value to me.
How do you feel about the value at the beginning vs now in the Kickstarter?
It wasn't a great value before, and it still isn't worth it.
It wasn't a great value before, but it is now.
It was a great value before, and is even better now.
It was a great value before, but the KS exclusives have lowered the value.
I think that I will be able to buy an equivalent amount of content for cheaper at retail after the game is released.
      115 answers
Poll created by jsallay
 
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Michael Ramm
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It kills me how much HATE there is for AEG and this KS. If you don't like the KS, then don't support it!! I was happily backing it on Day One. People are complaining about the art, no rules (well, they are up now), ruining Advance, changing everything without "telling us". SHEESH!

I, for one, am VERY excited for it. I only have Towers of Ruin from Advance, but I really like it. It has been hard to find and justify the cost of buying Advance for me. Now, AEG has redone it again, for a 3rd time, and I am excited to get in on the ground floor.

Please find another deckbuilding game where you get 900 cards plus other items for $100. And now it is almost 1200 cards and more bits and bobs.

If you don't like the game, the company for "ruining" the old game or whatever, that is fine. But don't bring it here and hate on it, just because you don't like it. If you are relying on other people to spend your money on something as subjective as a game, you need to rethink MANY MANY things in your life.
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Casey J
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michaelramm wrote:

Please find another deckbuilding game where you get 900 cards plus other items for $100. And now it is almost 1200 cards and more bits and bobs.

I see no problem with the value here.
If they can be compared, Xenoshyft Dreadmire KS including the Immolation and Forbidden Sciences expansions totaled $100 and included only 847 cards, but also a neoprene mat. If you wanted thicker boards than the standard poster board quality you had to pay extra. And there were no miniatures.

I guess it depends on what each person is looking for.


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Jonas Devos
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michaelramm wrote:
It kills me how much HATE there is for AEG and this KS. If you don't like the KS, then don't support it!! I was happily backing it on Day One. People are complaining about the art, no rules (well, they are up now), ruining Advance, changing everything without "telling us". SHEESH!

I, for one, am VERY excited for it. I only have Towers of Ruin from Advance, but I really like it. It has been hard to find and justify the cost of buying Advance for me. Now, AEG has redone it again, for a 3rd time, and I am excited to get in on the ground floor.

Please find another deckbuilding game where you get 900 cards plus other items for $100. And now it is almost 1200 cards and more bits and bobs.

If you don't like the game, the company for "ruining" the old game or whatever, that is fine. But don't bring it here and hate on it, just because you don't like it. If you are relying on other people to spend your money on something as subjective as a game, you need to rethink MANY MANY things in your life.


+1
The comment section of the kickstarter got quite depressing at some point...
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Brian Ciuppa
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michaelramm wrote:
It kills me how much HATE there is for AEG and this KS. If you don't like the KS, then don't support it!! I was happily backing it on Day One. People are complaining about the art, no rules (well, they are up now), ruining Advance, changing everything without "telling us". SHEESH!

I, for one, am VERY excited for it. I only have Towers of Ruin from Advance, but I really like it. It has been hard to find and justify the cost of buying Advance for me. Now, AEG has redone it again, for a 3rd time, and I am excited to get in on the ground floor.

Please find another deckbuilding game where you get 900 cards plus other items for $100. And now it is almost 1200 cards and more bits and bobs.

If you don't like the game, the company for "ruining" the old game or whatever, that is fine. But don't bring it here and hate on it, just because you don't like it. If you are relying on other people to spend your money on something as subjective as a game, you need to rethink MANY MANY things in your life.


Here's the thing.
If you don't like it and you say that you don't like it ...
It shouldn't matter if you're in the minority.
One person can't mind control a group.
If you don't like a comment the way to deal with it is not to tell the person to go away.
People have a right to say whatever they wish.
I find these comments that indicate that people should keep it to themselves to be a poor way to deal with what they've said.
Why don't you submit your list of reasons why everything is awesome.
That would be a great way to deal with someone saying that they didn't like something.
Have a debate of ideas.
If you can't handle that, maybe you need to go away.

To answer your question about the price vs quantity of cards.
What about Dominion?
What about Marvel Legendary?

I'm looking for a reason to stay in this Kickstarter.
I'm having a hard time.
I feel like this is a premium price.
I feel like people that buy this game in 18 months when it's available to online shops will pay a fraction of the price.
They've almost come out and said that nothing that's Kickstarter exclusive is really exclusive because they're going to make 2x art for everything.
I feel like the game should be closer to being complete then it is.
The rules should be done.
The cards should be done.
The packaging should be done.
I'm worried that the Kickstarter is full of disclaimers indicating that the game doesn't have to resemble anything that they've said during the campaign.
Do the disclaimers mean that they don't have to provide any of the stretch goals?
Do the disclaimers mean that the description of the core game can get chucked out the window?
Everything that I've listed are red flags.
I'm worried that this Kickstarter could fail because of where they are in their development cycle.
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Brad
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ciuppa wrote:
I'm worried that the Kickstarter is full of disclaimers indicating that the game doesn't have to resemble anything that they've said during the campaign.
Do the disclaimers mean that they don't have to provide any of the stretch goals?
Do the disclaimers mean that the description of the core game can get chucked out the window?
Everything that I've listed are red flags.
I'm worried that this Kickstarter could fail because of where they are in their development cycle.

This is the risk you take with any Kickstarter but at least here you have a solid company like AEG to back it up. Of course there is never a guarantee. Still I've looked very closely at how they have developed Quest, and it is quite impressive the amount of improvement that has been made. These improvements may be difficult to see for those less familiar with the mechanics (and let me tell you I have played a ton of Thunderstone), but it is obvious to me that a lot of passion has gone into this project. Was the Kickstarter perfect. No. But the love of their game is definitely there and they won't let it fail.
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For the sake of completeness, don't forget the dungeon tiles.

Anyway, how much bang you get for your buck was never my issue with this campaign. They should've offered more to show at the start as well as more consistent and in many cases just plain better art. And my by far biggest complaint is mired in a bit of self-loathing for supporting something with KS exclusives. But the pledge price points? Totally fine with those.
 
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Chris Lawson
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ciuppa wrote:
To answer your question about the price vs quantity of cards.
What about Dominion?
What about Marvel Legendary?

Dominion base set, 500 cards for $45
Legendary base set, 500 cards for $60

Kickstarter TSQ, 812 cards for $60

Note: 812 cards and counting.
137 cards in base, 243 cards in Quest, 48 cards in Prologue deck, 284 cards currently as stretch goals (soon to be 298 cards).
 
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Freelance Police
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I wouldn't value it by the card. I would value it by the expansion (or mini-expansion). These numbers are on the low side, such as an OLGS sale. Double it for MSRP.

Base game: $50+
Each expansion: $25+
SG's: $5 x26 = $150+

And $5 is on the low side for a mini-expansion. If you go onto the FFP Shadows of Brimstone site, you're looking at 15-card mini-expansions for $10: http://flyingfrogproductions.mybigcommerce.com/shadows-of-br...

If you want more Thunderstone, backing this at $60 plus shipping should be a no-brainer. AEG has been around for many years (although it's no FFG). They're using the same design team. If you're only a casual player who will be fine with the base game, sure, wait for reviews and retail.
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Michael Ramm
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ciuppa wrote:
The rules should be done.
The cards should be done.
The packaging should be done.


Says you! Three THOUSAND Six Hundred and Twenty Eight other people don't seem to have a problem with it. Just because it is not on the KS page, does not mean that it is not done. Just because they are KS the funding, does not mean that they have to give everything away on day 1. If you have a problem with that, see the next section.

ciuppa wrote:
I'm worried that the Kickstarter is full of disclaimers indicating that the game doesn't have to resemble anything that they've said during the campaign.
Do the disclaimers mean that they don't have to provide any of the stretch goals?
Do the disclaimers mean that the description of the core game can get chucked out the window?
Everything that I've listed are red flags.
I'm worried that this Kickstarter could fail because of where they are in their development cycle.


It sounds like Kickstarter is NOT the place for you then. I have baked over a dozen projects and have not had any problems.

ciuppa wrote:
I'm looking for a reason to stay in this Kickstarter.
I'm having a hard time.
I feel like this is a premium price.
I feel like people that buy this game in 18 months when it's available to online shops will pay a fraction of the price.
They've almost come out and said that nothing that's Kickstarter exclusive is really exclusive because they're going to make 2x art for everything.
I feel like the game should be closer to being complete then it is.


Then you really should get out. I don't think that your $60 or $100 will make much difference to them now.

As someone said earlier, there comes a time when you trust the owner/publisher/creator based on their past history. AEG has consistently proven that they want to make/publish great games.
 
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Brian Ciuppa
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xris wrote:
ciuppa wrote:
To answer your question about the price vs quantity of cards.
What about Dominion?
What about Marvel Legendary?

Dominion base set, 500 cards for $45
Legendary base set, 500 cards for $60

Kickstarter TSQ, 812 cards for $60

Note: 812 cards and counting.
137 cards in base, 243 cards in Quest, 48 cards in Prologue deck, 284 cards currently as stretch goals (soon to be 298 cards).


Dominion is a $30 game online and Legendary is about the same.
 
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Brian Ciuppa
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michaelramm wrote:

It sounds like Kickstarter is NOT the place for you then. I have baked over a dozen projects and have not had any problems.


I've backed several games.
I've never seen the level of disclaimers that AEG has tacked onto this one.
Maybe you haven't read the bottom of the campaign page?

Among other things, it reads:

By pledging to this project, you acknowledge that the final look, materials and content of the rewards (and the project) are subject to change and may differ substantially from what is presented while the Kickstarter project was active.
 
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Vviandelle
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ciuppa wrote:


By pledging to this project, you acknowledge that the final look, materials and content of the rewards (and the project) are subject to change and may differ substantially from what is presented while the Kickstarter project was active.


Nearly every boardgame kickstarter page shows this sentence, and still I haven't heard of a project that has radically changed everything after campaign ends.

The things you see for this campaign are practically end of production stuff. AEG is a big company that has too much to lose to screw the backers over.

There is nearly 0 risk to back this campaign, seriously
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Brad
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ciuppa wrote:
xris wrote:
ciuppa wrote:
To answer your question about the price vs quantity of cards.
What about Dominion?
What about Marvel Legendary?

Dominion base set, 500 cards for $45
Legendary base set, 500 cards for $60

Kickstarter TSQ, 812 cards for $60

Note: 812 cards and counting.
137 cards in base, 243 cards in Quest, 48 cards in Prologue deck, 284 cards currently as stretch goals (soon to be 298 cards).


Dominion is a $30 game online and Legendary is about the same.

They are today since they have been out for a few years. But the prices listed in what you quoted were the retail prices when those games were first released. So Quest is right where it should be as far as price goes, and it has a ton of extra content because of the stretch goals.
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Brian Ciuppa
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jadedlithium wrote:
ciuppa wrote:
xris wrote:
ciuppa wrote:
To answer your question about the price vs quantity of cards.
What about Dominion?
What about Marvel Legendary?

Dominion base set, 500 cards for $45
Legendary base set, 500 cards for $60

Kickstarter TSQ, 812 cards for $60

Note: 812 cards and counting.
137 cards in base, 243 cards in Quest, 48 cards in Prologue deck, 284 cards currently as stretch goals (soon to be 298 cards).


Dominion is a $30 game online and Legendary is about the same.

They are today since they have been out for a few years. But the prices listed in what you quoted were the retail prices when those games were first released. So Quest is right where it should be as far as price goes, and it has a ton of extra content because of the stretch goals.


I think you're right.
I don't need to pay a premium to wait a year or more.
I'll wait even longer for free and pay half for the same, likely with free shipping.
 
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Brad
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ciuppa wrote:

I think you're right.
I don't need to pay a premium to wait a year or more.
I'll wait even longer for free and pay half for the same, likely with free shipping.

Definitely a possibility! And it's always nice to support your local game shop or fellow gamer, whoever you get it from.
 
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Matt D
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michaelramm wrote:
It kills me how much HATE there is for AEG and this KS. If you don't like the KS, then don't support it!! I was happily backing it on Day One. People are complaining about the art, no rules (well, they are up now), ruining Advance, changing everything without "telling us". SHEESH!

If you don't like the game, the company for "ruining" the old game or whatever, that is fine. But don't bring it here and hate on it, just because you don't like it. If you are relying on other people to spend your money on something as subjective as a game, you need to rethink MANY MANY things in your life.


While some people are more rabid (on either side), I think it is completely legitimate for someone who (like me) owns an extensive collection of the original Thunderstone material to express disappointment that this new version has eschewed the cohesive design elements of the original in favor of the new style of digitally created animated artwork.

I understand why they did it. It's way cheaper to do digital versus canvas, and I suspect that it is also way easier to find a team of mediocre digital artists than it would be to find a few high quality canvas artists. That was their choice, and probably part of why they are able to offer a large amount of cardboard for an inexpensive price.

Personally, I'd have preferred a qualitatively better but quantitatively smaller product. Which is why I decided, after working at the artwork, to not back, although I had planned to when I first saw the announcement of its impending arrival some months ago.

This doesn't mean I'm going to tell everyone that they are making a poor choice by backing. They're not.

But to paint with the same brush everyone who would have been a backer but was disappointed by one of the many things that AEG did that was less than ideal isn't entirely fair.
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I've been on the fence about this the whole time, but for me what probably kills it is the shipping price. It's fine if you're in one of the cheap shipping countries like US or Germany, but for me it seems the shipping would be *at least* $35, apparently most likely even higher. So I'm at close to 200 dollars including the sleeves (excluding the Epic).

If I lived somewhere else I could probably justify this, but as someone who already has Dominion and several expansions, I just can't see it being worth it. Won't answer the poll because I feel it is very relative with the shipping prices and everything, and also because it depends on how much play you would be getting (like, if it's the only deckbuilder, it's a much better deal than if you already have others competing for that slot). Also, I have no idea about the eventual quality of the cards.

Thanks for the poll though, it has been very helpful in coming to a conclusion.

Which is, by the way, one reason why I love seeing the comments from both sides: those who do back it, and those who don't or have canceled their pledge. It's important to see both sides of the debate to make an informed decision, which is also why I strongly disagree with those who say that those people who cancel their pledges should keep quiet about it. I definitely want to know why, as long as they are being constructive.
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