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Thirty Years War: Europe in Agony, 1618-1648» Forums » Rules

Subject: Optional Rule 19.7 Tilly as Dynamic Leader rss

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David Gómez Relloso
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Hi, I think that this is an interesting optional rule to simulate better the first years -known as the "Bohemian Phase" of the war-, when the Catholic forces were triumphant againts the Protestants in Germany.

I have one question: what happens if Tilly dies while applying this optional rule?

I guess that there are two options:

1) Read the rule literally, so only Tilly may lead Bavarian and Imperial units together (until Wallenstein appears). The Catholic player must separate Bavarian and Imperial units in his next round.

2) Allow another Bavarian leader -for example, Aldringer, who replaces Tilly- to lead Bavarian and Imperial units (until Wallenstein appears, as usual). This gives a little advantage to the Catholic player and avoids a possible bad luck situation where Tilly dies prematurely.

Connected with my first question, there is another one: what happens if all Imperial leaders stacked with Tilly die in battle?

The optional rule says that there must be at least one Imperial leader to allow Tilly to lead Bavarian and Imperial units together. I suppose that here the Catholic Player would have two options:

1) Bring at least one Imperial leader to the space in his next round; or

2) Move units to unstack Bavarian and Imperial in his next round (they may not stay with Tilly without at least one Imperial leader in the space).

I want to hear your opinions, and official answers would be welcome. Thanks!

David
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Ralph Shelton
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Gentilhombre wrote:
Hi, I think that this is an interesting optional rule to simulate better the first years -known as the "Bohemian Phase" of the war-, when the Catholic forces were triumphant againts the Protestants in Germany.

I have one question: what happens if Tilly dies while applying this optional rule?

I guess that there are two options:

1) Read the rule literally, so only Tilly may lead Bavarian and Imperial units together (until Wallenstein appears). The Catholic player must separate Bavarian and Imperial units in his next round.

2) Allow another Bavarian leader -for example, Aldringer, who replaces Tilly- to lead Bavarian and Imperial units (until Wallenstein appears, as usual). This gives a little advantage to the Catholic player and avoids a possible bad luck situation where Tilly dies prematurely.
I think Number 1 is the only option, since it is Tilly's charisma that allows this. Tilly dying early is no different from Wallenstein or Gustav Adolph dying in the first battle, these things happen and now the game is more difficult for that side.

I would follow the example of the rule concerning when Wallenstein is on the map. The Catholic player would have until the end of the current turn to separate the Bavarian and Imperial forces stacked together or the Imperial units are removed to the force pool.

Gentilhombre wrote:
Connected with my first question, there is another one: what happens if all Imperial leaders stacked with Tilly die in battle?

The optional rule says that there must be at least one Imperial leader to allow Tilly to lead Bavarian and Imperial units together. I suppose that here the Catholic Player would have two options:

1) Bring at least one Imperial leader to the space in his next round; or

2) Move units to unstack Bavarian and Imperial in his next round (they may not stay with Tilly without at least one Imperial leader in the space).

I want to hear your opinions, and official answers would be welcome. Thanks!

David
Again, I would follow the example of the rule concerning when Wallenstein is on the map. The Catholic player would have until the end of the current turn to rectify the situation, either by bringing in an Imperial leader or separating the Bavarian and Imperial forces stacked together. If he doesn't, then Imperial units are removed to the force pool.
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David Gómez Relloso
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Ralph,

Thanks for your answers! I agree with your point of view. So unless we have an official correction, here is what I will apply:

When using optional rule 19.7, if there are Bavarian and Imperial units stacked together and:
- Tilly dies; or
- All Imperial leaders stacked with Tilly are eliminated (and another Imperial leader is not sent to the space).
The Catholic Player has until the end of the current turn to separate any Bavarian and Imperial forces stacked together (or the Imperial units will be eliminated).

I would add two further notes/clarifications:

1) If one of those situations indicated above happens during the Catholic 6th round (the last one of the turn), he will have until the end of his next round (the 1st round of the next turn) to unstack Bavarian and Imperial units.

2) If Tilly dies or if there is not any Imperial leader stacked with him, the Catholic Player CANNOT move Bavarian and Imperial units together. That is, he has until the end of the current turn to separate them, but meantime he cannot move a combined Bavarian and Imperial army (they may stay together until the end of turn).

I would appreciate if you could comment this last two notes. Do you agree with them? Thanks!

David
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Ralph Shelton
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Gentilhombre wrote:
I would add two further notes/clarifications:

1) If one of those situations indicated above happens during the Catholic 6th round (the last one of the turn), he will have until the end of his next round (the 1st round of the next turn) to unstack Bavarian and Imperial units.
I think you are being too nice! Only let the Catholic player have until the end of the turn. This will force that player to be circumspect and not put Tilly in any danger on the last Action Round. You rule is a reasonable rule and there is no reason you shouldn't play with it. Apparently, I am not as nice as you are. :)

Gentilhombre wrote:

2) If Tilly dies or if there is not any Imperial leader stacked with him, the Catholic Player CANNOT move Bavarian and Imperial units together. That is, he has until the end of the current turn to separate them, but meantime he cannot move a combined Bavarian and Imperial army (they may stay together until the end of turn).
Yeah, that is how I would play it and what I think the rules are trying to get at.

These optional rules are cool, but since they were optional, they didn't get expanded out into well considered, well written rule sections. Some didn't need that, like adding an extra Imperial Veteran, but this one needed some extra thought.
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