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Subject: Enhancement pricing for elemental infusions rss

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Luke
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I'm stuck on this one.

for 100g, a character can buy a specific elemental infusion.

for 150g, a character can buy a wild card elemental infusion.

So it seems like an instant case of buyer's remorse. Since the changes are permanent, it seems like I'd always be looking at that card and thinking "one or two more good loot runs and I could have had a card which is strictly better."

Raising the price significantly could throw the problem in the other direction. "For 200 more gold, this would be strictly better, but that's potentially a long time."

Unless I'm missing something(it's been know to happen), I think I'm going to houserule out the any element infusions, just so there's a reason to buy the specific ones. I think that will lead to more interesting choices for me in card use down the road.

Have I missed something? If not, how is your group handling this?

 
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soak man
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Didn't miss anything, it is strictly a case of whether or not you have the patience to buy the wild one. Also, some classes might only work with one or two types so it might just not be worth it.

For example, the Mindthief almost exclusively uses frost or dark infusions. It could be worth getting the wild one just to set up other players, but generally infusionsenhancments are meant to enhance that character's deck.

(EDIT: upgrading an ally's performance is just icing on the cake)
 
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Kevin Greene
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I'd definitely second soakman's sentiments. 50 gold is non-trivial, and you're spending it on something that is strictly better but not necessarily much better for a given character.

Put another way, as a Cragheart, would you rather have the ability to create any element, or the ability to create earth, plus 50g worth of items. Just looking at the starting items, 50g gets you the ability to poison once per long rest, make any move into a jump each long rest, and heal each scenario. Later on, items only get better. Eventually, 50g gets you the

Spoiler (click to reveal)
ability to summon a skeleton!


I'd sure want earth + items over a wildcard that's going to mainly be generating earth.
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Luke
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kgreene2343 wrote:
50 gold is non-trivial.


At scenario level 4, with the intent to loot, 50g is far more easily accessible. Non-trivial will probably differ between groups.[/q]

kgreene2343 wrote:

Put another way, as a Cragheart, would you rather have the ability to create any element, or the ability to create earth, plus 50g worth of items. Just looking at the starting items, 50g gets you the ability to poison once per long rest, make any move into a jump each long rest, and heal each scenario. Later on, items only get better. Eventually, 50g gets...


I've got items up to Prosperity 5 and a chunk of random item designs. There has come a point for many characters where they've got the items they need.

For instance, in your example, if the cragheart wants to poison once per long rest, he probably bought that item a long time ago. And, once a character has items, it's easier to sell off old items to help fund upgraded ones.

The difficulty here is that enhancements are generally added after a character gears up, and 50g is far more easily available than it was at scenario level 1.

 
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Luke
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soakman wrote:

For example, the Mindthief almost exclusively uses frost or dark infusions. It could be worth getting the wild one just to set up other players, but generally infusions are meant to enhance that characters deck.


I disagree with you here.

Setting up a friend to use their element on their turn is huge.

Brute heals into Earth. Then Cragheart uses Earth to fuel ability, also infuses Earth, then Spellweaver uses earth to fuel one of her wild card abilities.


 
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Luke
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Just following on from my previous example. Brute buys wild card for his Move 2, Shield 1.

Goes early, and can look at his friend's cards and the enemy cards, then choose the optimal element for that round.

For instance, if the MT needs to stun more than the CH needs +1 Attack on his AOE, infuse Ice, otherwise Earth.

Or let's say there's a
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Night Demon
on the board, infuse
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Sun, so that it takes damage on the turn.


I just think that in all cases, the wild card is significantly better.
 
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David Latimore
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Wild is way better. So it's certainly a case of opportunity cost. Are you ok going without anything at all while you earn an additional 50g?

If I were to house rule this (and I'm not certain I would) so that people could change their enhancements. I'd probably have them pay the cost of the one they want to get rid of in addition to the cost of the new one they want. Or maybe something even more harsh.

But I probably just wouldn't house rule it at all. Enhancements are a bonus really, and don't need to be fully optimized.
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mournful wrote:
soakman wrote:

For example, the Mindthief almost exclusively uses frost or dark infusions. It could be worth getting the wild one just to set up other players, but generally infusions are meant to enhance that characters deck.


I disagree with you here.

Setting up a friend to use their element on their turn is huge.

Brute heals into Earth. Then Cragheart uses Earth to fuel ability, also infuses Earth, then Spellweaver uses earth to fuel one of her wild card abilities.




Correct but it is reliant on party composition and it is much harder to do effectively without limiting your strategies in smaller parties. It's much easier to set yourself up because you know which cards you have available and don't have to interrupt the entire turn just to pull off a single combo.

I think you are definitely right in that the wild card is always better. But not everyone is going to go for that choice. Imo, more options are better than less options.

But if you are playing in a 2-party group with a partner who doesn't consume any elements (like at least one of the unlockable classes), it really doesn't matter, you just need the element that you yourself are going to use.
 
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mournful wrote:
soakman wrote:

For example, the Mindthief almost exclusively uses frost or dark infusions. It could be worth getting the wild one just to set up other players, but generally infusions are meant to enhance that characters deck.


I disagree with you here.

Setting up a friend to use their element on their turn is huge.

Brute heals into Earth. Then Cragheart uses Earth to fuel ability, also infuses Earth, then Spellweaver uses earth to fuel one of her wild card abilities.




OOPS, part of this was my bad. I meant Enhancements are generally meant to enhance that character's deck (not infusions). Obviously infusions are for anyone to use.

The wild infusion enhancements allow the character to enter any party and remain useful on the elemental board, but if you don't want to pay the cost, a MT for example, would be fine with picking one of the TWO he can use as it will always be beneficial.
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Luke
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soakman wrote:
mournful wrote:
soakman wrote:

For example, the Mindthief almost exclusively uses frost or dark infusions. It could be worth getting the wild one just to set up other players, but generally infusions are meant to enhance that characters deck.


I disagree with you here.

Setting up a friend to use their element on their turn is huge.

Brute heals into Earth. Then Cragheart uses Earth to fuel ability, also infuses Earth, then Spellweaver uses earth to fuel one of her wild card abilities.



But if you are playing in a 2-party group with a partner who doesn't consume any elements (like at least one of the unlockable classes), it really doesn't matter, you just need the element that you yourself are going to use.


Well the issue here is that these cards will persist across all instances of that class. So if I put any element on something, it will work in any party later. Except in the case where a class doesn't use infusions at all.

I think this is really all about the long view. So for some it won't matter.

But next year when I make a party, I don't want to regret any enhancements choices.
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Luke
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soakman wrote:


OOPS, part of this was my bad. I meant Enhancements are generally meant to enhance that character's deck (not infusions). Obviously infusions are for anyone to use.


Oh! That makes much more sense.
 
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Paul Johnson
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mournful wrote:
kgreene2343 wrote:
50 gold is non-trivial.


At scenario level 4, with the intent to loot, 50g is far more easily accessible. Non-trivial will probably differ between groups.


kgreene2343 wrote:

Put another way, as a Cragheart, would you rather have the ability to create any element, or the ability to create earth, plus 50g worth of items. Just looking at the starting items, 50g gets you the ability to poison once per long rest, make any move into a jump each long rest, and heal each scenario. Later on, items only get better. Eventually, 50g gets...


I've got items up to Prosperity 5 and a chunk of random item designs. There has come a point for many characters where they've got the items they need.

For instance, in your example, if the cragheart wants to poison once per long rest, he probably bought that item a long time ago. And, once a character has items, it's easier to sell off old items to help fund upgraded ones.

The difficulty here is that enhancements are generally added after a character gears up, and 50g is far more easily available than it was at scenario level 1.

[/q]Even if you're maxed out on items saving gold means you can buy more enhancements.

Think of it this way: would a Cragheart rather have two 'infuse wilds' or three 'infuse earths'?

The argument for taking wild is certainly strong, but I think you're missing the point of the argument for saving gold.
 
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Luke
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Khift wrote:
Even if you're maxed out on items saving gold means you can buy more enhancements.

Think of it this way: would a Cragheart rather have two 'infuse wilds' or three 'infuse earths'?

The argument for taking wild is certainly strong, but I think you're missing the point of the argument for saving gold.


Definitely two infuse wilds over three infuse earths. Elemental synergies can greatly enhance group efficacy.

I think this is about the long view. A CH with two wilds is better in almost any party than a CH with three Earths.

Again on gold, it's an infinitely renewable resource, whereas enhancements are limited by prosperity.

I'm 76 plays in, many different combos, and I rarely need to buy items anymore. They've got their potions, they've got the best armor, boots and weapons they can buy.

My main party also has reputation 19, so I'm getting a great discount.

This is why I'm not valuing saving gold very highly. My Cragheart is currently sitting on 60g. His gear is pretty sweet. If he or someone else can put Earth on the table, he can turn any card into an Attack 5. If he can put Air on the table, my Brute can use that. 150g lets me do either as needed on the fly, whereas 200g for an Earth and an Air(which the CH can also use) will take more work to set up, and won't be as useful when the Brute retires.



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Drake Coker
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Quote:
I'm 76 plays in...


Gloomhaven burnout in 3...2...


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Luke
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Olvenskol wrote:
Quote:
I'm 76 plays in...


Gloomhaven burnout in 3...2...




Naw.

My games go in cycles, so even once I've put this on the shelf it'll come back out a couple times a year.

Which might be the entire issue.

This has become my main dungeon crawler, and I love dungeon crawlers.
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Mike Arlington

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If your main concern is that on a later date you'll regret which enhancement you pick, an alternative house rule would to just allow enhancing over existing stickers. The original price paid would just be lost, and you'd be paying full price for not the full effectiveness a brand new enhancement would give you. Seems like those would be large enough drawbacks to outweigh the benefit, while still giving you the option if you really want it.
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Cameron Chien
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mournful wrote:
I think this is really all about the long view. So for some it won't matter.

But next year when I make a party, I don't want to regret any enhancements choices.

You've played Gloomhaven more than anyone I know, so do you find that people are making new characters of old classes all that frequently?

In my copy we haven't unlocked all of the classes yet (I think we have six more to go) so naturally most people's interest, if they are making a new character, is to play one of the previously locked classes.
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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in my main party of 4 we had unluckily 2 characters with the same class unlock and 1 character which unlocks envelope X. So we probably have to at least redo a class we already did; althou my spellweaver will probably become level 9 before retireing because we still need a scenario in the misty sea to retire her, and we don't have one yet..
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Luke
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Zeede wrote:
mournful wrote:
I think this is really all about the long view. So for some it won't matter.

But next year when I make a party, I don't want to regret any enhancements choices.

You've played Gloomhaven more than anyone I know, so do you find that people are making new characters of old classes all that frequently?

In my copy we haven't unlocked all of the classes yet (I think we have six more to go) so naturally most people's interest, if they are making a new character, is to play one of the previously locked classes.


After I unlocked all the classes, I made a second Cragheart. I think he's pretty great.

Otherwise, I've always made a new character based on what I've just unlocked.

One exception to that.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
a quest didn't unlock a new character, so I made a Mindthief to take that spot.


So I think for most groups, it probably won't come up.

Although Morthai makes a good point. One could run into a situation where someone needs to make a second instance of a class. I think that will be rare.

I could also see someone putting a new character class back in the box and making a new version of something else if the unlocked character is way outside their playstyle.

For instance, if you've been playing the Scoundrel like it's your spirit animal, then unlock a class like
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Saw
, you might say, "this is not how I play. What is this!?"

I really like my second Cragheart. I made some different card choices and used a different perk order than the first one.
 
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Kevin Greene
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I suppose if you're enough plays in that money doesn't really matter, then most balancing decisions around money are going to feel a little off.

I'm currently prosperity level 3, and a "full set" of gear for an individual that's level 4 would run over 200g, and that's definitely not particularly easy for me to come by. Then, when you start adding in all of the enhancements, an additional 50g is a pretty big hit.

If you wanted to add restrictions, I'd say a reasonable default would be limiting classes to elements they can create and consume for thematic reasons. That would include people like the Spellweaver being able to enhance their cards with wild, and classes like the Cragheart focusing solely on earth. I'm not sure if a lot of classes get wild consumption later on, but I think the above would appropriately incentivize buying single elements in line with theme.
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Michael Wilbur
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My group is probably about 70-85 Plays in. Prosperity 7.
With all but Triple Arrow and Triangle unlocked.

Our current practice is to focus on Item builds and retirements.
I have 6 retired characters under my belt - my wife has 3 and a few others dispersed in there.

We're playing for long run - not short run.

I've been enhancing cards that are immediately useful for ANY build on that character.

50g to enhance up to a Wild draw "MID PLAY" is kind of difficult unless you've capped level 9 at full item build.

50g to enhance as "Retirement Party" - is a piece of cake, and it would be worth not enhancing another card to get wild.

The last 3 retirements were level 9 characters with 300+ remaining gold. I was able to afford 1-2 enhancements depending on the card.

I would say for example, It vastly depends on the class.

With certain items - having "wild" elements on your class cards are unnecessary as transforming elements becomes viable with classes that need it
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Elemental Circlet - Exhaust(Spend) item to convert an element to another element
Mana potions, etc


That being said - Looking back on some elemental classes that use 2+ elements - Spending the extra 50g for that wild element creates a multi-use Any Element generator that is far more powerful than any item.

IMHO - Save the extra gold If you're a long term player/// Pick your favorite element if you're a short term player.

Have fun Gloomseekers!
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Jo Bartok
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Because of the triangle class alone
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Any/Wild Infusions
are really good.
 
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