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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: EX Query rss

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Fred Glassman
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We are playing a multiplayer game in a few weeks. It will be my first game in about 20 years. Believe it or not, I've ready through every thread in this rules forum! I am currently playing a solo game to "bone up" on the game and a question has arisen that hasn't been addressed in the forums yet. Frankly, I'm fairly certain I know the answer, but I would like confirmation from the "hive mind" in here.

Germany took Paris, placed a bridgehead on the city and has a stack of 4X 4-6 ARM, 3-3 Arb, and an Italian 2-5 Arm, for a total of 21 factors. The French and British can only muster 20 factors to attack, making it a 1-3 attack. If all allied and German units are removed in an exchange, then there is a possiblity that a British Armored unit can "re-occupy" Paris by passing through it as it exploits from another attack. My question is regarding the EX. If the Allies roll a "hard" EX, I know that all 20 of their factors would be eliminated. However, do the Germans have to eliminate their entire stack too (all 21 factors), or because it was an EX on the initial attack roll, they get the benefit of their doubled defenses, so that they can eliminate 10 actual factors to get to 20.

Thanks in advance for your replies!
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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On the full exchange the defender would get to match the attacker loss based on terrain modified factors, i.e. 2 for 1 in your situation.
 
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Konstantinos K
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It is the latter! The Germans would only need to remove 10 actual factors to match the EX losses, so losing just two 4-6 and the Italian 2-5 would suffice.
However, keep in mind that per rules, this attack cannot legally occur under the odds you describe, as the French will be now forced to take a pass option. The attack can occur but only with british forces, however, regardless of the odds.
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James Cox
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Isn't the question moot prima facie???

Aren't there some rules about UK/French not attacking same hex same time? Only French units can attack Paris when German occupied?

I think any allied units can attack Paris later in the game, but on the turn of German occupation only French may liberate Paris?
 
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James Cox
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kostaskav wrote:
It is the latter! The Germans would only need to remove 10 actual factors to match the EX losses, so losing just two 4-6 and the Italian 2-5 would suffice.
However, keep in mind that per rules, this attack cannot legally occur under the odds you describe, as the French will be now forced to take a pass option. The attack can occur but only with british forces, however, regardless of the odds.


Please explain why the Frecnh has to take a Pass? I do not understand.

I thought the French were limited by rules to attacking ONLY Paris on the turn of German occupation, not that France had to take a pass.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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The rule specifies that they can only make attacks that could conceivably lead to the recapture of Paris. If the "best" possible result of the 1-3 cannot possibly lead to the recapture of Paris then it is not allowed. It simply being an attack on Paris is not enough.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Kukailimoku wrote:

Isn't the question moot prima facie???

Aren't there some rules about UK/French not attacking same hex same time? Only French units can attack Paris when German occupied?

I think any allied units can attack Paris later in the game, but on the turn of German occupation only French may liberate Paris?


No, the Franco-British cooperation rules do not prohibit a combined attack on the same hex. It merely prohibits them from stacking. So one or the other could provide ground support, but not both (as the air factors would have to be stacked together in the same target hex to perform the mission). One or the other could advance into the hex if they eliminate the Germans, but not a combination of both. As I understand it, the hope in this case was that the German defenders in Paris could be completely eliminated, and the British could exploit through the hex recapturing it (note the British cannot be IN Paris, but they can move THROUGH Paris).
 
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Lewis Goldberg
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In our game, the Germans captured Paris via Exploitation on the previous turn (W40). It is now Sp41, Allies have initiative. French moved units around Paris to attack, result=CA, the CA resulted in an exchange, and all Germans and French were wiped out. 26.813 at the end mentions:

Quote:
26.813: In rare instances, however, it might be possible for a British unit to recapture a vacant, Axis-controlled Paris by moving through it.


I (the British) had to armor units, and I moved through Paris and out, and we declared France safe from the Hun (for a bit).

My concern comes from whether I understand the turn sequence properly. The French went through their whole turn (in which they failed to retake Paris, but did empty it), and the the British did their turn, in which they did the "rare instance" move of cruising through Paris and declaring it free.

Parts of the rules seem to suggest that we should be taking our player turns in an intertwined fashion, i.e. France moves, England moves. France attacks, England attacks, etc. In which scenario, what we did would be illegal.

How does the group rule on this? I know this is a simple thing (or should be) but my encrusted brain can't figure it out. Regardless, we've moved past the point, and as I type this, an Italian Armor just exploited into Paris! I just want to know if we're screwing up how we play the turns (it's a 3 player game).

I also have concerns about supply. Once Paris falls, as in my story above, when our French player failed to retake Paris with his army, he did builds and SR, and then my British unit moved through Paris and I finished my turn out. Is French supply traceable to London via ports, as long as we have plenty of navy lying about, and were his French builds legal?
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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France and Britain take their turn in unison, so you cannot do what you described. The only way Britain could "move through" the vacated Paris would be for exploitation eligible British armour to exploit move through it.
 
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Lewis Goldberg
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deadkenny wrote:
France and Britain take their turn in unison, so you cannot do what you described. The only way Britain could "move through" the vacated Paris would be for exploitation eligible British armour to exploit move through it.


Okay, that's what I was afraid of.

Are the turns intertwined by Front? Add the Americans and it's 3 sides intertwined?

What of Russia?
 
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fangotango
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All allied powers do their movement at the same time, regardless of which fronts they are on. The Combat Phase only begins after all movement is complete (other than interception of naval base changes). So Russia does their movement phase at the same time as the western Allies even before Russia is at war with the Axis.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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lgoldberg wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
France and Britain take their turn in unison, so you cannot do what you described. The only way Britain could "move through" the vacated Paris would be for exploitation eligible British armour to exploit move through it.


Okay, that's what I was afraid of.

Are the turns intertwined by Front? Add the Americans and it's 3 sides intertwined?

What of Russia?


It might help to review the sequence of play. There are only two player turns per game turn, and every major power takes their turn in unison with their "side" (Axis or Allied). There is some provision in the additional variants for a major to switch sides (Italy can become allied). However, whether or not they are actively at war, every major power will take their turn in unison with their allies. There is a provision for minor countries, attacked but not yet conquered and where intervention has not yet taken place to have a separate mini-turn of their own, but that is technically (according to the SoP) part of one of the two player turns.
 
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Lewis Goldberg
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Thanks everyone!
 
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