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Subject: complexity rss

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B Charlebois
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what are your thoughts on complexity(even though the rules have not been released). I like how the game appears to be somewhat low complexity but with a lot of strategic possibilities...looks like I could bring this game to my casual gaming group and it appears to be easy to teach/grasp even on the first playthough. I'm not saying its a gateway game but still : no hidden information (all cards available for purchase are visible, not a ton of cards per season, not many mandate cards to choose from, all the text/monster/power appear to be easy to understand...I have not played blood rage because it looked a bit complex with the card drafting (which requires you to now what cards are available. that being said there appears to be a lot of decision making...which mandate to take...or take away from players...during war: what to bed for...when to bid as you can loose initial battles to have more money for later battles....
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Cameron Lucas
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Yeah my hope is that it will be easy to teach but that between the negotiation, alliances and gameplay there will be a lot of depth and deployability.

The latest update talking about the season cards has me a little worried though. I'm hoping it won't feel like there aren't very many legitimate choices during the game :/
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B Charlebois
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Yes, also the clan power (and starting position) appear to dictate a bit what might be the best "path" to follow might be (high honor, low honor)...I'm sure it will be play tested so that it does not happen...
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Randy Espinoza
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CameronWLucas wrote:
The latest update talking about the season cards has me a little worried though. I'm hoping it won't feel like there aren't very many legitimate choices during the game :/
I can't wait to read the first draft of the rulebook to get a better sense about the game dynamic and flow. But I'm curious, why would the ability of acquiring powerful cards not provide legitimate choices?
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Tomasz Podsiadło
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For me, it seems mre complex than to most people on forums, but still not overly complex, easy enough to teach people.

In fact, the game has grown more complex for me in past days, which I like. Ideas, like 4/7 kamis, rotating card sets, all the clans assymetry, keeping honour track in mind, multiple purposes for which you fight, all mandate thing... Game looks better and better with every news touching the actual gameplay.
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B Charlebois
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omnibus4404 wrote:
For me, it seems mre complex than to most people on forums, but still not overly complex, easy enough to teach people.

In fact, the game has grown more complex for me in past days, which I like. Ideas, like 4/7 kamis, rotating card sets, all the clans assymetry, keeping honour track in mind, multiple purposes for which you fight, all mandate thing... Game looks better and better with every news touching the actual gameplay.



Yes, perhaps "simple" is more in line with what I meant...the game appears to be simple to teach/learn but still complex in what you do and when you do it...having more god adds to the complexity but still for every single game you only have 4 to keep in mind. same with season cards...you only get 12 I think per season so it does not look overwhelming. I'm saying this because blood rage did not appeal to my gaming group because it looked a bit complicated....It seams like I would have liked it, but not my gaming group...that's why I like that Rising sun looks simple(but with much complexity) if that makes sense...
 
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Jon Snow
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A good game is simple to learn but hard to play well and win. Blood Rage is like that, and I think this game will be even more so.

Of course, only you can know whether its right for your own players. The rule book will help, and it will be out at the end of the KS campaign.
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Oden Dee
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Blood Rage was a great game. But I wanted more from it. I felt Monsters were mostly useless and hoped for an expansion that would add more cards and combos.

Rising Sun, I'm hoping the Monsters are more valuable and has more combos than Blood Rage.

I like how Rising Sun is not just win and lose options but now has the additional Hostage option. I hope for several combos with this. Although I hope this doesn't counter monsters too hard.

I hope for some Ronin combos. Assuming it balances with the other 1000 permutations and doesn't ruin the Ronin mandate.
eg. You may convert 3 ronin to a single special ronin that is always added to battle.
eg. 2 of your ronin is equal to 3 force.
 
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Michael Drog
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I just can't believe they won't release the rulebook until after the KS. I mean all we are pledging for is plastic dolls at this point and then we will find out how the game plays after we give them our money. Crazy.
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Randy Espinoza
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mdrog2 wrote:
I just can't believe they won't release the rulebook until after the KS. I mean all we are pledging for is plastic dolls at this point and then we will find out how the game plays after we give them our money. Crazy.
Either you're misinformed or really well informed.

Last time I checked (see FAQ in Kickstarter page), just like since the beginning of the campaign, they "are currently working on the Rulebook and hope to make it available before the end of the campaign."
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Becq
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My impression is that the basic game mechanics are fairly simple, but that there is a fairly significant amount of strategy in decisions such as timing mandates to maximize your own benefit while minimizing benefit to the other players. And in particular, how to minimize benefit to your ally, while maintaining plausible deniability.
 
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Mr. Octavius
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mdrog2 wrote:
I just can't believe they won't release the rulebook until after the KS. I mean all we are pledging for is plastic dolls at this point and then we will find out how the game plays after we give them our money. Crazy.


I have a fairly solid idea how the game plays by watching people play the game in their video.
 
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Nigel McNaughton
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Thiago earlier today in the comments reiterated that the rulebook is coming soon.
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Becq wrote:
My impression is that the basic game mechanics are fairly simple.

But that there is a fairly significant amount of strategy in decisions such as timing mandates to maximize your own benefit while minimizing benefit to the other players. And in particular, how to minimize benefit to your ally, while maintaining plausible deniability.

I think so too.

The core game itself already adds a lot of tactical choices and the clan's unique abilities already offer a variety of choices and combinations. As a matter of fact I am not 100% sure I like the addition of Kami and the Dynasty add-on with its seperate Gods, which add even more complexity.
 
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Jon Snow
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meeple Well, I plan to play at first without Dynasty Invasion, which I'm looking on as Rising Sun's First Expansion. I'm sure it will be easy enough to add it when we're ready.
 
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Andrew Boyd
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I own Blood Rage but was disappointed in its lack of depth. Many of the goal cards were either duplicates or derivatives of each other. The card effects were all very simple. The provinces were nearly identical except for how many models could fit on them. And the factions were identical other than the models and name. Card drafting was the one saving grace for the game but I don't find "+2 battle strength" to be a very exciting card. There were slight synergies to be found but no real combo building.

Cry Havoc and Scythe were better games IMO.
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Becq
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chas59 wrote:
meeple Well, I plan to play at first without Dynasty Invasion, which I'm looking on as Rising Sun's First Expansion. I'm sure it will be easy enough to add it when we're ready.

Well, the first two are Dynasty Invasion and Kami Unbound. Which is first is debatable ... though it's worth noting that *every* backer will have one of those expansions, but not everyone will have the other...

Oh, and technically there's the "Fox Clan" expansion, but that's an exclusive, so I don't think it counts.
 
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Shanti Massey
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This game leans heavily on mindgames from what I can tell. I guess it's a matter of if you think the "I can clearly not choose the cup in front of you" gameplay is complex enough for you.
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Purgatus wrote:
This game leans heavily on mindgames from what I can tell. I guess it's a matter of if you think the "I can clearly not choose the cup in front of you" gameplay is complex enough for you.

Well the mindgames will also depend on your player group. Some people will approach this far more like a classic strategy game. From what we have seen, this certainly isn't at the level op Diplomacy. And perhaps we may be happy with that as I do hope RS won't end friendships.

And complexity .. chess is a complex game and so is AD&D. But in different ways: the rules of chess are rather straightforward but the possibilities and combinations make it complex. AD&D has a very extensive ruleset which makes it complex while the gameplay definitely doens't has the complex options of chess.
I think for boardgames you generally don't want AD&D like complexity as it puts down a high wall for new players. The more extra rules and exceptions, the worse it gets.
 
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Nicholas Johnson
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If Blood Rage was lower mid weight, I'm hoping this makes it to just regular old mid weight. Watching the videos, it seemed there was a lot more decision making going on than in Blood Rage, a lot more to consider each round. That being said, that added level of stuff going on could be easily counteracted if your clan special abilities dictate too strongly the paths you can take. We could end up with a game that's harder to learn but actually less complex than Blood Rage worst case scenario. That being said, that's rather extreme. I'm sure you have plenty of options at your fingertips regardless of what your clan specializes in.

It certainly is something to consider though. The biggest pitfall I've seen games with unique player powers fall into is asking each player to play a certain way and then forgetting to give them real choices to make.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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powermad wrote:
We could end up with a game that's harder to learn but actually less complex than Blood Rage worst case scenario. That being said, that's rather extreme. I'm sure you have plenty of options at your fingertips regardless of what your clan specializes in.

It certainly is something to consider though. The biggest pitfall I've seen games with unique player powers fall into is asking each player to play a certain way and then forgetting to give them real choices to make.

I'm actually quite certain that Blood Rage is the simpler game due to less variables. It may have a steeper learning curve due to the age I - III and possible tactics - but the rules are more simple.

And agreed, it remains to be seen if some unique clan abilities will restrict its options. Which isn't necessarily bad, as long as there are enough viable options remaining.
 
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Mr. Octavius
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Teowulff wrote:
And agreed, it remains to be seen if some unique clan abilities will restrict its options. Which isn't necessarily bad, as long as there are enough viable options remaining.


From what I've seen of the clan abilities they seem to all give unique ways to play without forcing one strategy:

Koi can use coins and ronin interchangeably, which does narrow their focus a bit as they may not want to spend as much on season cards and strongholds. However, their strategy could be to get a lot of coin, or to get a lot of ronin. They will probably want a Kami or two to help with that, and will still want bushi on the board for harvesting so upgrades will still be beneficial. In fact, if they are able to secure some ronin they may be more willing to spend coin during the political phase as they can spend the ronin during War.

Dragonfly have free movement, which doesn't restrict them as much as gives them more freedom. They are less dependent on marshaling (other than to build their strongholds) and can ignore any Kami that gives mobility. With some clever planning they could potentially spread to territories for a harvest mandate, then move to the territories they want to conquer during War.

Bonsai don't need to spend coins on upgrading, so at first glance it seems like they just want to train as much as possible. However, that coin discount does nothing for them, so maybe they're better off taking other actions and letting their opponents spend their turns selecting training while they grab whatever they want for free.

Lotus has the most freedom, as nothing pushes them in any one direction, and being able to choose any mandate they want lets them do any strategy. Their main strategy may be one of denial, 'Bonsai wants Training mandates? Well this Training mandate is now a Harvest instead.'

Turtle's strongholds act and move as troops, so they will want as many strongholds as they can get. While this may make them less interested in training (strongholds are expensive), all those strongholds means a lot more troops from recruiting, so one of the cheaper seasonal cards could go a long way. If they can't marshal they can still likely get plenty of value from recruiting (due to all those strongholds) and harvest (due to having more 'troops' available than any other clan.)

The political mandates are fairly broad in scope, so anyone can really benefit from them. I will be the selection of season cards where player's really pick their strategy.

The expansion clans are different and seem more limiting:

Sun needs to be high honor to take advantage of their ability, so a low honor ninja / oni strategy is out. They could do it but at the cost of never having the benefit of their clan ability. They'll really want to focus on Kami and Season cards that increase honor over other ones. While they still have plenty of choices with the political mandates, their upgrade path has a pretty narrow focus.

Moon may be the most restrictive in terms of viable strategy, simply due to having the least options. Having the lowest seasonal income means they get at most 2 coins at the start of the season. (We don't know the exact number yet, but we know it's the least and Bonsai has 3) They can't build a stronghold unless someone Harvests first, and are very limited in purchasing seasonal cards if they want any coin for the war phase. They are also limited to having two figures at the temple, but I don't know if that really restricts more than it saves the player from them self. (You're going to have a hard time getting figures on the board, And that is what your clan ability boosts. Don't waste them at the temples.)
It seems to me that if the moon clan wants to capitalize on its ability, the best way to do that is to play the betray mandate as much as possible, as it gives them just as many troops as recruit if they only have 1 stronghold, removes 2 other troops, and denies anyone else the benefit of the mandate. This means most people won't want to ally with them to begin with. Moon clan will have the toughest time breaking out of this mold and convincing people to ally with them.
Lowest honor also means only 1 turn selecting a mandate in Spring unless you're playing with 3 players. Oshu, their starting territory, gives 3 coins but if they want to be able to spend it they need to convince someone to ally with them and choose to harvest early, then they could potentially Marshal for a stronghold, and/or invest in a season card that will pay off over the course of the game.
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John Whyman
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Never in the field of gaming was so much art wasted on elaborate chess pawns. There is no strategy to choose one playing peice over another since the minis don't have character sheets. The byzantine rules barely conceal the lack of effort to give the art a purpose. It is as though Rising Sun is a marketing research project to probe the depth of the gullibility of the gaming public. Give them great art and no redundant minis and they will ignore all other aspects of the game

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Nicholas Johnson
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scurvy duck wrote:
Never in the field of gaming was so much art wasted on elaborate chess pawns. There is no strategy to choose one playing peice over another since the minis don't have character sheets. The byzantine rules barely conceal the lack of effort to give the art a purpose. It is as though Rising Sun is a marketing research project to probe the depth of the gullibility of the gaming public. Give them great art and no redundant minis and they will ignore all other aspects of the game


Ummm, I don't think many people are being "fooled" by this given this is how it worked for blood rage and many genuinely love playing that game. The models are excessively done for flashiness, but just because a model doesn't have a page of stats to go with it doesn't mean it's entirely worthless. There's 2 types of soldiers, a leader, and lots of unique monsters, along with the kami. It's nice to know what is what.
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Mr. Octavius
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powermad wrote:
scurvy duck wrote:
Never in the field of gaming was so much art wasted on elaborate chess pawns. There is no strategy to choose one playing peice over another since the minis don't have character sheets. The byzantine rules barely conceal the lack of effort to give the art a purpose. It is as though Rising Sun is a marketing research project to probe the depth of the gullibility of the gaming public. Give them great art and no redundant minis and they will ignore all other aspects of the game


Ummm, I don't think many people are being "fooled" by this given this is how it worked for blood rage and many genuinely love playing that game. The models are excessively done for flashiness, but just because a model doesn't have a page of stats to go with it doesn't mean it's entirely worthless. There's 2 types of soldiers, a leader, and lots of unique monsters, along with the kami. It's nice to know what is what.


No, no, clearly it's a waste of time. The leader should be a flat circle, the Shinto triangles, and bushi's squares. The map can be replaced with a simple grid with connection lines, and the monsters with numbers.
"I move piece 17 and all the cubes with it to space c3."
"C3 isn't connect to b4"
"Piece 17 has ability 'a6' which lets me move there."
"Hmm, I'll give you piece of cardboard to go somewhere else."

See how much more fun a game is when you strip it of theme? Why even give cards names at all?

Besides, it's not like we can see the game being played anywhere or have any information about mechanics...

/s
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