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Evolution: Climate» Forums » Variants

Subject: Initial cards removal rss

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Hi,

I just received my climate conversion kit, and when I read the rules, something disturbed me about the initial cards removal. Indeed, it is stated that we must remove n cards (I suppose randomly) from the initial deck, where n is much higher than in the regular version. In a 2P game, we must remove 88 cards. The problem is that there is a high probability to totally remove at least one trait (around 15%, ie once each 7 games!)

I suggest the following to precise the way to discard the cards (for two players, but can be adapted):
Remove 3 cards per trait, except carnivore, for which you remove 10 traits (3/7 is close to 10/23). You removed 3*22+10=67 cards. Then, you randomly discards 12 cards to remove a total of 88 cards.

Thus, you'll get a trait distribution close to the initial one. Plus, if you often play the same configuration, the initialisation time of the game is drastically lowered, as the first removal must be done only for your first play.

What do you think about that?
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Robert Ahearne
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This should be in the Variants forum.
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France
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Can I move the topic to the good forum or should I delete this one and create another one?
 
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Paulo Renato
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there are more cards removed here because there are also more cards in the deck... there I think 6 more carnivore cards and 7 more traits, each with 7 cards so, a total of 55 more cards, so if you don'remove extra cards the game will be longer than what's supposed to be
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The issue that I see is not that there are more cards to remove in absolute (furthermore, in both classical and climate, you play with the same number of cards = 89 cards), but the fact that if we remove these cards randomly, there is a "high" probability that one trait won't be available during the game.
 
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Paulo Renato
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Lebesgue21 wrote:
The issue that I see is not that there are more cards to remove in absolute (furthermore, in both classical and climate, you play with the same number of cards = 89 cards), but the fact that if we remove these cards randomly, there is a "high" probability that one trait won't be available during the game.


I went to check the rulebooks to see the numbers...

Base Evolution:
129 Trait cards
Remove 40 cards in a 2P game leaving you with 89 cards

so you remove 31% of the cards


Climate:
177 Trait Cards
Remove 88 cards in a 2P game leaving you with 89 cards

so you remove 50% of the cards

It looks to be an high difference that supports your claim... the thing is that you also have 6 new traits with 7 cards each, so 42 new trait cards and 6 more Carnivore cards...

My Math skills are poor so I don't know if the new traits are enough to dilute the chance of a trait having all cards removed, I would say that there's more of a chance of that happening with Evolution than with the Base game...

But the more important thing, that think you are overlooking is that Evolution is a tactical game... it's pretty much impossible for you to sit down and say:

"I want to create a species with these 4 traits"

Even if you have all the cards in play like in a game with 5 or 6 player game, you are still at the mercy of the luck of the draw... you have to look at the cards you have and the situation of the game and come up with a plan on the spot... this is the fun and challenge of Evolution (be it the base, the Flight or the Climate)

Also, if a trait is completely out of the game it will be for all players, so, no one has a disadvantage over the others...

My advice is to play the game like the rules are saying to be played and have fun with it... this game has been thoroughly playtested (thousands of times), so trust in the work of the designers, the development team, etc... I'm sure they know what they were doing and they know the game much better than me or you
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France
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I agree with you. And you are right, the probability that one trait is removed is much higher in climate (15% vs <1%).

However, it seems still strange to me that this event can occur (not because it will create a disadvantage, because as you state it is removed to everybody).

Note that this "issue" only occurs to 2P games. In 3P, the probability drops to 1%.

Btw, this is not an important point, and I still have a lot of fun playing this game!
 
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RJ
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This actually occurred in my 2p game and it was a bit of a sour note. Thanks for coming up with an alternative.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Lebesgue21 wrote:
...Btw, this is not an important point, and I still have a lot of fun playing this game!


You can remove any 1 card from CLIMATE and the game will still be balanced (as long as people don't know which card is removed ahead of time).
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