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A Wing and a Prayer: Bombing the Reich» Forums » General

Subject: Can we please have the rulebook? rss

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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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I am very interested in this game, but with B-17 Flying Fortress Leader and Target for Today on preorder I am unsure if I need yet another WWII Bomber solo game. The rules would help with the decision greatly, and I have a feeling I am not the only one.

TIA!
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Tony M
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Yes indeed, please let us see at least a few pages of the rulebook. I've read that there are a number of changes from the original PnP version, but nobody has said what those changes are. There is a mission flowchart in the "B-17 Bomber Squadron" section of BGG, but nothing on this game.

I went ahead and preordered "A Wing and a Prayer" because somewhere I read that it was supposed to be released in March. I don't want to miss the pre-order price. Years ago I stopped buying games without doing a lot of research--for this game, based on the few comments here on BGG about "B-17 Bomber Squadron," I made an exception.

Even in the official forum on the LnL website, there is not a lot of discussion about this game. It looks like it should be really good, but...
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Richard A. Edwards
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I recently asked again over on their forums and David Heath said:
"We only release the manual once the game is out and shipping."
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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SirRoke wrote:
I recently asked again over on their forums and David Heath said:
"We only release the manual once the game is out and shipping."


That is a shame. Oh well, two other great games on the same subject have their rule books out. Pass on this one.
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Gerit Driessen
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What two games are you thinking of?
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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Gerit wrote:
What two games are you thinking of?


Check the OP.
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Gerit Driessen
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Ah,yes. Thanks!
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Tony M
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SirRoke wrote:
I recently asked again over on their forums and David Heath said:
"We only release the manual once the game is out and shipping."


Because shipment of the game has been delayed for more than a month due to the fact that LnL has not actually received the game, it would be nice for the company to release even a few pages of the rule book.

Giving their eagerly waiting customers something to whet their appetites would not be a bad thing. What would it hurt? Especially since there has been so little discussion of this game, even on the LnL forums.

It is never a good thing for a company to take its customers and/or potential customers for granted.
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Martin Gallo
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Tony M wrote:
It is never a good thing for a company to take its customers and/or potential customers for granted.
I really doubt that "taking customers for granted" is an issue with LnL. I truly believe Mr. Heath appreciates every customer. We may not all be equal in standing but we are all important.
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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I don't think it's a taking for granted situation but the refusal to release the rulebook before the preorder discount doesn't sit well with me.

So I'll vote with my wallet, not under any delusions that LNL will actually feel my vote but at least I'll have that money in my pocket to spend elsewhere.
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Tony M
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Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
I don't think it's a taking for granted situation but the refusal to release the rulebook before the preorder discount doesn't sit well with me.

So I'll vote with my wallet, not under any delusions that LNL will actually feel my vote but at least I'll have that money in my pocket to spend elsewhere.


I would really like to have this game. Based on what little was written about it when it was a print-and-play game, it seems to be the kind of game that would appeal to me. But the lack of discussion about the current version, here and on LnL's own website, is not a good sign. No playtester comments, very little from the original designer, etc. If this game ever does arrive, I think it will be the last time I make a purchase from this company.
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Joe Steel
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There were images recently posted from the few advance copies available at Origins, in my opinion it looks awesome.

David Heath has been posting updates on the ongoing problems they have with the printer and shipping company, not just for this game but the huge print order for 25+ titles that is currently en-route. The printer and shipping company broke up the entire order (hundreds of games) into three shipments and placed on three separate boats, at least that's what I understand.

IIRC the designer did post somewhere he is currently working on converting some of his other PnP games for Lock n' Load professional printer standards, so maybe he is busy with that?

I think I also read they want to try to have bonus content (like flight and squadron logs) for A Wing and a Prayer ready when the game ships.
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Gerit Driessen
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I still cannot understand why the rules are not explained before the pre-ordering expires, or the rulebook made public. It is very common to do so nowadays.

A few weeks ago I emailed the publisher but I am still waiting on a reply. Not very nice.

Too bad because the game looks great. But I think it is better to wait until after publishing, when reviews come online.
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Tony M
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On 4-20-2016 on the LnL forum the original designer said:

We, also, developed some new concepts and rules that will make game play very challenging and exciting. Owners of B-17 Bomber Squadron, while familiar with the basic Mission Procedures, will be impressed with the many updates and rules provided in A Wing and a Prayer.

He added on 3-27-17:

There are quite a few differences between the original P&P rules and the L&L Version.....We tried to make the new version more robust and historically themed. Many of the specific rules and events tables have been modified.


What bothers me most is that no details have been offered as to what these updates, new concepts and differences are.

Ok, the company does not want to release the rulebook.

But how about telling people how the new version will play differently from the old version? All we have to go on is a couple of old AARs for the original, PnP version. How will the new version play differently? How about some examples?
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Richard A. Edwards
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From the LnL forums
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/p/19748

I asked if we could get the rules in PDF:

David Heath wrote:
The game is done and fully printed and on a boat. We only release the manual once the game is out and shipping. It is not to be mean or stop anyone enjoyment of the game but we are helping represent our designers work. In that interest and to do that we prefer to allow the designer the final approval.

Rich Edwards wrote:
I totally understand the designer having final approval of the rules! I would just have hoped that their final approval would have occurred before printing.

David Heath wrote:
Yes, of course, we let the designer look at everything before we printed. My point is time has passed and it always a good to let the designer review the game again. I also find releasing the manual before the game causing a lot of issues because players do not have the player aids etc. So I will release the manual when the games start shipping.
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Gerit Driessen
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For me, reading the rules gives me insight in the game so that I can make an educated decision if thr game is something for me or not.

Never did I feel lost without additional charts etc. In all the years on bgg I never encounteted people having issues because they got to read the rules and noyhing else.

Obviously mr. Heath had diffrrent experiences and I respect that.

I'll wait.



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Tony Costa
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Hi guys,
I've been working with designer Erik von Rossing to convert one of his PnP games for Lock n' Load, David Heath told us he didn't want a simple file conversion but wanted the game upgraded and enhanced to give the gamer full value for their dollar (like A Wing and a Prayer). So we've been working on that and it's going well. If the LnL version is successful we might be able to continue to convert some of Erik's other games...so hopefully it works out.

I was fortunate enough to receive an advanced copy of A Wing and a Prayer, wow was I thoroughly impressed by the component and overall quality of the product. The game looks great and is a blast to play (and I'm not even a big B-17 bomber fan, more of a ground tactical guy). I emailed David to let him know that the game arrived, looks great and plays smooth. I mentioned some of the player aid card rules references didn't match the rules but that in my opinion it wasn't a major problem and the gamer could figure it out. He called me immediately to find out what exactly didn't match, was adamant that "the gamer could figure it out" mentality was a no-go and if a game had LnL on the box he wanted the gamer to get as good of a final product as possible.

So he flexed Erik and I off the PnP project to check A Wing and a Prayer, as I understand its been a year since they sent the files to the printer and since then everyone had moved on to other projects, we have basically been going over double-checking everything just in case.

I'll let Erik reply if possible but do know he has been extremely busy, not just with game related stuff. Erik is at the top of the list of class act guys I've ever met in the hobby so just didn't want anyone to think his not being active here was from any neglect or lack of caring.

The news from LnL's recent (last night) update is that the A Wing and a Prayer game boxes are scheduled to hit the dock next week, then have to clear customs and be trucked to Colorado.
As for the rule pdf question, I'll let LnL officially answer but from what I understand they hadn't worked with this printer previously and so want to verify the final components in the main shipment first.
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Richard A. Edwards
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Thanks for the great update. I'm impressed with the commitment to a quality game. I'm really looking forward to seeing it.
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Erik von Rossing
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David Heath certainly intends on posting the rules for download to his web site.

The delay in posting the rules was due to a recent thorough and critical review of the rulebook and components. We did a lot of rewriting and organizing the rules and they are extremely better organized and written.

I will let David Heath know, although, I am sure he is quite aware, that potential customers are anxious for the Downloadable Rules.

Erik von Rossing.
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