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Subject: Rule 16 Clarification (Chest 2 spoilers) rss

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Patrick G.
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Hey All,

This is the first time my friends and I are playing these types of games, and we have been finding that some of the wording is ambiguous, at least to us as inexperienced board gamers. We are addicted and we really want to continue playing these types of games. We have the forums up for clarification as we go along, but at some points, we are still confused, so, please bear with me.

We had our first ship raid yesterday, and have some clarification questions on the defense/garrison of the ship if the ship based on the defending ship's location. Here was the situation:

Grey used one ship to raid one of Blue's ships. Grey's ship had a raid value of 5, plus 2 for one upgrade, and plus 1 for another. Grey also was playing The Savage, who granted +3 raid, for a grand total of 11.

Blue's ship had a hold value of 3, which, based on the rules, is the ship's defense value. Blue's ship had a raid value of 2 and a sail value of 5, so Blue chose the sail value as the garrison, which we understand is the number of die removed from the raid pool.

At this point, the raid pool is down to 6, but we had two other questions. The first question is based on the interpretation of the word "occupied". As the rule states, a die gets removed from the raid pool if the defending ship "occupies" the space.

1) Does "occupied" simply mean that because Blue was present in the space beforehand, and Grey came into that space to raid, that a die gets removed?

OR

2) Does "occupied" mean that Blue has to control the space, such as a province or colony?

We interpreted and played it out as if #1 was the correct interpretation, mainly because in our instance, both 1 and 2 applied (Blue occupied the space beforehand, AND it was on an island where Blue had a colony).

The second question deals with the interpretation of the word "region", as Blue's colony had the Heavy Guns upgrade.

3) Does the "region" of the Gun Tower encompass everything in that space? This would have meant that we would have applied the Gun Tower bonus to Blue's garrison.

OR

4) Does the "region" encompass ONLY the colony and apply ONLY if the colony was raided?

The thing that threw us off was that the rules seem pretty clear (at least to us) that you would not apply the Gun Tower bonus to the island if the island is raided. However, if a raid happened in a province's harbor, it seems pretty clear as well that the Gun Tower bonus would apply.

We played it as #4 (much to Blue's chagrin).

We found a thread in these forums dealing with this question, but there didn't seem to be a consensus at the time (Oct. 2016, I believe), so we wanted to see if there had been some sort of ruling.

Finally, we would like to clarify that we played out the raid correctly.

Grey rolled 5 die, with 4 successes against the hold value of 3 on the ship. There was nothing on the ship (Grey was seeking the milestone), which left 4 successes to be applied how Grey saw fit. Grey used 3 successes to apply damage and sink the ship. We also took this to mean that Grey would then give 3 enmity to Blue, and not 4, because the 4th was not applied. Did we do this correctly?

I understand this is a long post, but I figured it would be best to be as detailed as possible given our inexperience. Thank you for your consideration!
 
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Simon C
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Re: Rule 16 Clarification (minor spoilers)
Welcome! Don't worry about needing to ask for rules clarifications, Seafall has more than its share of ambiguously worded or badly explained rules.

Regarding the first question: the rules talk about adding or removing a die from a ship raid if the attacker or defender controls the space, not occupies it. Which is if the space is the home harbour of one of the sides, or a colony owned by one. Presence of the ship itself does not cause you to control the space.

For the second question, I think it's been established that the Gun structures only provide garrison bonuses for the province/colony itself, not for anything else going on in that space - either an island site or ships in that region. I could be wrong on this though.

And yes, you pay one enmity per success used, rather than one per success rolled. So 3 enmity in this case. Note that if you chose to use 0 successes in a raid, you won't place enmity but you also won't get a Glory - you have to apply at least one success and pay one enmity for the successful Raid endeavour Glory.

By the way, can you edit the title of the thread to mention "Chest 2 spoilers"? Rule 16 is a Chest 1 element, but colonies only turn up in Chest 2.

Hope this helps, and do ask further questions! It's also worth taking a look at the unofficial FAQ that has been compiled on here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1606358/captains-log-unoffi...
 
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Patrick G.
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Thank you for your answers - and thank you very much for the unofficial FAQ. I don't know how I missed that earlier.

Title was edited as requested.

Quote:
Regarding the first question: the rules talk about adding or removing a die from a ship raid if the attacker or defender controls the space, not occupies it. Which is if the space is the home harbour of one of the sides, or a colony owned by one. Presence of the ship itself does not cause you to control the space.


Yes, I see that now, I apologize.

I am sure this is my "noob"ness talking, but in the instance I described, how does Blue not control the space, if Blue's ship was raided on the island where it had a colony? I guess I am still not understanding the concept of control in this game.
 
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Chris Willott
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Blue does control the space, because he's the governor of the colony, and it looks like you did everything right. (I believe the above was a clarification)
 
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Patrick G.
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Willottica wrote:
Blue does control the space, because he's the governor of the colony


Thanks for your response!

I guess what I still don't understand is that if he does indeed control the space, what makes this different from a raid near the harbor, and why does the Gun Tower bonus not apply?
 
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Chris Willott
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The gun turret wouldn't apply in the harbor, either, so far as I know. The sea is a different region than the island/province
 
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François Mahieu
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We gave the game a first try yesterday and played 3 games in a row.

We were surprised by how easy it seems to raid an enemy ship. At least during the first games. You easily roll 3-6 die against a very poor defense (a hold of 2 or 3 at best), causing usually 2-4 successes, which means the opponent's ship's almost always being destroyed. There isn't much the defender can do to prevent this, as far as I know. And what are the drawbacks for the attacker? Having to spend enmity tokens? In other words, he won't be able to raid more than a few times during a game? And above all, if I got it well, the attacker is taking a risk as he's giving the defender the opportunity to raid their province in return (as each given enmity token would add a die to any raid attempt targeting the attacker's province)? Is that so?

The thing is... that it seems so easy to raid an opponent, that it becomes almost impossible to plan any resources transportation, as they'll most probably be stolen before they reach their destination.



Edit:
Well. I just found this in the FAQ:

Quote:
Note that when you perform any sort of raid against another player, "ALL enmity held by the defender, no matter where, reduces the dice pool of the attacker." Reference: Rob Daviau


So if the defender already has enmity tokens belonging to the attacker (in their province sheet for instance), the attacker would have to lower their dice pool by the same amount in any raid attempt targeting the defender (either their province or any of their ship)!? Is that so?
 
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Chris Willott
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That is so.
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François Mahieu
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Willottica wrote:
That is so.




Thanks for the clarification then.

One last thing: player A has enmity tokens from player B on their province (A suffered damages from B earlier). If A try to raid any player B's ship, does A get additional die (as many as B's tokens on their provinçe) when attempting to raid them?

Same question if A tries to raid B's province?
 
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Chris Willott
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If and only if those tokens are in the "at war with" section. So they might not apply until after a winter.
 
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Patrick G.
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Willottica wrote:
The gun turret wouldn't apply in the harbor, either, so far as I know. The sea is a different region than the island/province


Alright, I think I understand. Just to clarify then, in a ship raid:

-the defending ship's defense value is the hold

-the defending ship's garrison value is the player's choice between raid and sail values

-additional dice modifications only occur if
1. a support ship is present
2. a participant controls the space (this only happens if the raid takes place in the harbor of a province or on an island space with a colony - control does not equate to the occupation of an open sea space)
3. one of the players has pre-existing enmity with the other (for example, in my stated situation, if Grey had 2 pre-existing enmity with Blue, then Grey would have been forced to subtract an additional 2 die from its pool)

-Gun Towers will NEVER impact the pool of die in a ship raid

-the amount of enmity that is applied is optional based on how the attacking player allocates his/her successes (however, if no enmity is applied, that also means that no glory can be achieved)

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François Mahieu
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Willottica wrote:
If and only if those tokens are in the "at war with" section. So they might not apply until after a winter.


When successfully raiding an opponent's ship, don't you have to put enmity tokens in this "at war with" area (one token per hit)?

 
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Chris Willott
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Correct, Patrick.
And yes, when raiding a ship, the enmity goes right to the at war with section, but if you raid anything else, it hangs out for a while first.
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Patrick G.
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I have one more clarification. In the rules it reads "The defender picks the flagship."

This wording refers to the defender picking their own flagship if it is a 2v2 ship raid, correct?

It does not mean that the defender picks the aggressor's flagship if the aggressor brings two ships to the raid (for example, Grey sends two ships to raid one Blue ship - one Grey ship is geared towards raiding, while the other is geared towards exploring - Blue would name the exploring ship as Grey's flagship).

I am sure this is common sense, but the wording, at least to us, was not entirely clear in that respect.
 
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Chris Willott
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Yup, right again. The aggressor will pick their own flagship, but the defender has time to maneuver their ships in such a way as to choose which one gets attacked (they pick the defending flagship, which is the one that will take damage or be plundered.
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Patrick G.
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Thank you so much for all of your help!

One set of questions answered - now on to the next rule
 
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François Mahieu
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platinumpat3133 wrote:
Thank you so much for all of your help!

One set of questions answered - now on to the next rule


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Mikael Fransson
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platinumpat3133 wrote:
successes to apply damage and sink the ship. We also took this to mean that Grey would then give 3 enmity to Blue, and not 4, because the 4th was not applied. Did we do this correctly?


He used the Savage, which adds one enmity for a raid action, so it would have been four after all.
 
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