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Subject: Praefectus Magnus: obligated or optional? rss

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Spieler Gott
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In the English rules Praefectus Magnus must be used if you produce goods with the Praefect.
In the German rules it seems to be optional.
 
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Derry Salewski
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It is not optional on boiteajeux.
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M.C.Crispy
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In the English rules it is mandatory, if you produce goods. It's optional if you take the money.


I'm surprised that there's ambiguity in the German language rules, isn't Herr Gerdts a native German speaker? I'd expect the German rules to be definitive.
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Matt Hindmarch
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I just checked my English rules. It's a "must use."
 
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Spieler Gott
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mccrispy wrote:

I'm surprised that there's ambiguity in the German language rules, isn't Herr Gerdts a native German speaker? I'd expect the German rules to be definitive.


Herr Gerdts is German, that's why I am wondering.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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mccrispy wrote:
In the English rules it is mandatory, if you produce goods. It's optional if you take the money.

Not quite. You cannot use it if you take money.

From the English rules: "A player must use the PRÆFECTUS M. when able [i.e., when PREFECT is used to produce goods] and may not choose to forego its benefit to keep it for later. But if a player plays a PREFECT card in order to receive the cash bonus, the PRÆFECTUS M. is not activated and remains with the player: it is not allowed to double the cash bonus."

The German rules are also explicit in saying that one cannot use PRÆFECTUS M. when using PREFECT to collect the cash bonus.

While the German rules do not include the text (present in the English) that emphasize the "may not choose to forego" detail, they are unambiguous.

Like the English rules, the German rules state that, if you have the PRÆFECTUS M. and produce goods, production is doubled and the card is passed to the next player. There is no language in either language to suggest that this optional.

It may be that English readers might tend to interpret such language as optional and that the clarifying text was added to the English to account for that fact.

Edit: The OP is German (and I am not), so I do not want to second-guess him as to how German readers tend to interpret rules. But here are the German rules:

"Spielt der Spieler mit dem Praefectus Magnus einen Praefekten aus (oder nutzt ihn mit einem Diplomaten), um eine Provinz produzieren zu lassen, erhält er den doppelten Warenbonus (2 statt 1). Es gibt keine Auswirkung auf die Produktion der Häuser. Danach reicht er den Praefectus Magnus an seinen rechten Sitznachbarn weiter."

I see it saying that there is a double bonus on production and the card is passed on. I'm not sure what word in the German suggests optionality.
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Andrea Bampi
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kackarschen wrote:
mccrispy wrote:

I'm surprised that there's ambiguity in the German language rules, isn't Herr Gerdts a native German speaker? I'd expect the German rules to be definitive.


Herr Gerdts is German, that's why I am wondering.


I'm sorry, but the german rules are not ambiguous.
"Spielt der Spieler mit dem Praefectus Magnus einen Praefekten aus (oder nutzt ihn mit einem Diplomaten), um eine Provinz produzieren zu lassen, erhält er den doppelten Warenbonus (2 statt 1)....Danach reicht er den Praefectus Magnus an seinen rechten Sitznachbarn weiter".
No "kann" (can) anywhere. All actions are mandatory, clearly.
In the english (and italian) rules an additional sentence was added - specifically prohibiting to voluntarily skip the Prafectus Magnus action.
Fully unnecessary, IMHO.

Edit: saw Gillum's post right after posting mine cool
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Olli Juhala
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Well, that's been played wrong here then. Not that it's made much difference, I think.
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Christopher Corrigan
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Yes, it is mandatory (unless, of course, you take the bucks). Them there rules aint ambiguous at all. But, I didn't like that rule so I search and searched over the various rules translations: Afrikaan to Yoruba, Basque to Uzbek, Catalan to Punjabi. Finally, I found that the Urdu rules do not translate this as being mandatory. Relieved, I now play that official version.
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M.C.Crispy
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gillum wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
In the English rules it is mandatory, if you produce goods. It's optional if you take the money.

Not quite. You cannot use it if you take money.
You are of course correct, and I even play it correctly. I fooled myself with the "is it A or B" question, to which - knowing it was !A, I replied "B" without thinking. Sigh.
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Spieler Gott
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In games where I get a bonus for something I tend to assume that it's my choice if I want to use it or not.
It's easy to say that "it's so obvious that it is mandatory" if you have it written in your rules.
But that sentence is missing in the German rules and while we were playing the game and asking ourselves, "must" was the word we were looking for and missing.

I guess there was a reason to put this additional sentence
"A player must use the PRÆFECTUS M. when able and may not choose to forego its benefit to keep it for later."
in all other languages.

Or did Herr Gerdts thought all Germans are so much more clever?

Krsnaji wrote:
But, I didn't like that rule so I search and searched over the various rules translations: Afrikaan to Yoruba, Basque to Uzbek, Catalan to Punjabi. Finally, I found that the Urdu rules do not translate this as being mandatory. Relieved, I now play that official version.


The thing is, I am often surprised that rules can be different in the different languages. And I am not talking about different versions. I am talking about games that have rules of different languages in one box.
And even I assumed that if it's a German puplisher the German rules should be the one I should stick with I was surprised that the English rules were clearer. That's why I sometimes read the English rules in addition. This time I didn't.
 
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Russ Williams
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kackarschen wrote:
In games where I get a bonus for something I tend to assume that it's my choice if I want to use it or not.
It's easy to say that "it's so obvious that it is mandatory" if you have it written in your rules.
But that sentence is missing in the German rules and while we were playing the game and asking ourselves, "must" was the word we were looking for and missing.

But if the rules say "X happens", then that means that there is no choice involved! X happens, whether or not you want it to, and it's irrelevant whether X is a "bonus" or not.

E.g. Senator says: "After the purchase(s), all remaining personality cards inside the display move to the left if their left position is empty, and the display is replenished to the new total of 7 cards (as long as there are fresh cards inside the stack)". Often this movement left is good for you: it moves some card you intend to buy further left so you'll be able to buy it sooner and cheaper. Yet that doesn't imply that it's optional to do this movement left.

(Also note that "bonus" is ultimately a subjective judgment call. If it was clearly always good to use praefectus magnus, then you wouldn't be wanting to optionally not use it anyway. So evidently using the praefectus magnus is not always a "bonus".)

Quote:
The thing is, I am often surprised that rules can be different in the different languages.

Well, the rules are identical in terms of their meaning. The text expressing the rules is different, but that's inevitable if they're in different languages.

Presumably whoever did the translation to English thought the redundant clarifying sentence should be added. But they didn't actually change the rule; they just made it clearer for people who "tend to assume" that it's their choice whether to apply an "X happens" rule if X is usually good for them.
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Andrea Bampi
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kackarschen wrote:
In games where I get a bonus for something I tend to assume that it's my choice if I want to use it or not.
It's easy to say that "it's so obvious that it is mandatory" if you have it written in your rules.
But that sentence is missing in the German rules and while we were playing the game and asking ourselves, "must" was the word we were looking for and missing.
....
Or did Herr Gerdts thought all Germans are so much more clever?


You usually are cool

Quote:
The thing is, I am often surprised that rules can be different in the different languages. And I am not talking about different versions. I am talking about games that have rules of different languages in one box.
And even I assumed that if it's a German puplisher the German rules should be the one I should stick with I was surprised that the English rules were clearer. That's why I sometimes read the English rules in addition. This time I didn't.


Well, this is definitely an exception. There are MANY other things poorly translated in the english rulebook, and in general the translator "took too many liberties" - if you search through the forum, you'll find many examples...
I ALWAYS read the german original rulebook, especially with Gerdts's games, and this approach solved MANY doubts
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Diego Fernandez Garcia
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But, for example, what about if you have only one free space in your storehouse, and you use your Prefect card (having the Praefectus Magnus)?

You get 1 unit of the goods type depicted on the bonus marker, so you put it on your remaining storehouse space. You can´t place a second good, so you can´t obtain the praefectus magnus bonus.

Do you have to hand the Praefectus Magnus card to the next player?
 
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Russ Williams
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mangote wrote:
But, for example, what about if you have only one free space in your storehouse, and you use your Prefect card (having the Praefectus Magnus)?

You get 1 unit of the goods type depicted on the bonus marker, so you put it on your remaining storehouse space. You can´t place a second good, so you can´t obtain the praefectus magnus bonus.

Do you have to hand the Praefectus Magnus card to the next player?

I think that surely yes, you do: that seems to me a clear implication of its use being mandatory, not optional.
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M.C.Crispy
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mangote wrote:
But, for example, what about if you have only one free space in your storehouse, and you use your Prefect card (having the Praefectus Magnus)?

You get 1 unit of the goods type depicted on the bonus marker, so you put it on your remaining storehouse space. You can´t place a second good, so you can´t obtain the praefectus magnus bonus.

Do you have to hand the Praefectus Magnus card to the next player?
Yes. The trigger is not "using the PM benefit" it is "Prefecting for goods not money"
2the rules wrote:
If a player who currently owns the
PRÆFECTUS M. plays a Prefect card (or
uses one with the Diplomat) in order to let
a province produce, he receives a double
bonus (2 units instead of 1). Production
inside the cities is not affected. After his
turn he hands the PRÆFECTUS M. to the
player sitting to his right. A player must use
the PRÆFECTUS M. when able and may
not choose to forego its benefit to keep it
for later.

The goods are produced, it's just the rule about having a full warehouse the means that you don't get to keep them - but you do get them, so you pass the PM to the player on the right.
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