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Subject: Trump and the NRA and veteran's health rss

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Jon Badolato
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Connecticut
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I get that people have second amendment rights, but this just seems like a foolish step. Veterans compose 8 percent of the population but account for 18 percent of suicides nationally, mostly be firearms. I think there should definitely be due process here to prevent random trampling of a person's rights, but Inalso think that if qualified medical professionals review a case and believe that a veteran may pose a danger to himself or others that he be denied access to guns in the short term. Your second amendment rights are a moot point if you're dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound.

https://thinkprogress.org/house-gop-veteran-suicide-epidemic...

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G Rowls
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I think in this narrow context only the answer is simple if they are not considered under the law cable of running their own affairs , then they aren't responsible enough to own\purchase a gun. whilst that circumstance holds true.

I believe even children have rights but those rights are curtailed by parental rights to some degree? The US doesn't sell guns (legally) to children without parental consent does it?
 
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CHAPEL
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I don't think it would pass muster in the SCOTUS that states anywhere in the Constitution that mental illness is a factor for denying rights.
 
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Derry Salewski
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I didn't realize how many people had been in the service at one point. 8.5 percent is quite a lot!

Hmmm. It's weird. On the one hand, those 20 vets a day that die by suicide definitely shouldn't be sold guns. But does that justify "trampling" on the rights of the rest of them?

Because the law for everyone else isn't "you see a shrink, get a diagnosis, and no more guns for you." You have to do something to get there involuntarily, it seems like for most states, judging from a quick look at google.

Like, this same logic should prevent lots of people from doing lots of things based on statistics. But that's why we have a constitution.

But I dunno. I work in mental health. I don't want any of the people I work with buying a gun. I would trust the doctors I work with to make that call. It seems like people can appeal it under the current system.

Also, though, how many service people don't already have a gun? I don't know. I just assume if I was trained to shoot one why not own one.
 
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Derry Salewski
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MWChapel wrote:
I don't think it would pass muster in the SCOTUS that states anywhere in the Constitution that mental illness is a factor for denying rights.


?

it's already a law.
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CHAPEL
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scifiantihero wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
I don't think it would pass muster in the SCOTUS that states anywhere in the Constitution that mental illness is a factor for denying rights.


?

it's already a law.


Not for long.

But how many of these veterans are even deemed "Mentally Ill" in a clinical sense. I mean, a depression diagnosis is probably not enough to deny rights. I'm not certain, but I'm thinking if you were sentenced to a mental institution, sure. It's like being incarcerated. But if you are released because you are "better". How can they deny that? And how many of these veterans even spent any time in a mental institution? I'm guessing not many.
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Pontifex Maximus
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jonb wrote:
I get that people have second amendment rights, but this just seems like a foolish step. Veterans compose 8 percent of the population but account for 18 percent of suicides nationally, mostly be firearms. I think there should definitely be due process here to prevent random trampling of a person's rights, but Inalso think that if qualified medical professionals review a case and believe that a veteran may pose a danger to himself or others that he be denied access to guns in the short term. Your second amendment rights are a moot point if you're dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound.

https://thinkprogress.org/house-gop-veteran-suicide-epidemic...



This quote kinds of makes the case

Quote:
On Thursday night, the House passed a bill allowing thousands of veterans who are “mentally incapacitated, deemed mentally incompetent, or experiencing an extended loss of consciousness” (i.e., blackouts) to buy guns — a measure could make America’s veteran suicide epidemic even worse, according to veteran advocates and mental health researchers.


Seriously why is it trampling rights to keep firearms out of the hands of these folks to help to make sure they are of no danger to themselves or others
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rekinom
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If you have been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital or adjudicated as a mental defective, you are already a prohibited person and cannot legally own a firearm, unless your rights have been restored.

This bill that passed the house, the text of which can be found here, was introduced in response to an Obama-era executive order that sent names to the background check system for veterans who were not actually prohibited persons.

Another Obama executive order did the same thing for social security recipients who were not managing their own funds. Even the ACLU had problems with that:
Quote:
The ACLU and 23 national disability groups did not oppose this rule because we want more guns in our community. This is about more than guns. Adding more innocent Americans to the National Instant Criminal Background database because of a mental disability is a disturbing trend — one that could be applied to voting, parenting or other rights dearer than gun ownership. We opposed it because it would do little to stem gun violence but do much to harm our civil rights.


We have mental health reporting in NY state as part of the Safe Act.

NY has taken guns away from a retired cop who had insomnia and a woman with cystic fibrosis who felt jittery after taking cold medicine.

There is no due process, warrant, or judicial review. A simple clerical error can result in the police showing up at your house and confiscating your property for months or years. You haven't been arrested for a crime, so you don't have access to a public defender. You have to hire your own lawyer to fight it and only after the fact.

This does little to actually make people safer. Police are only looking to confiscate guns they know about, which will typically be registered hand guns. I personally know someone who had their handguns confiscated, but the police ignored the long guns in the same safe, because "they weren't on the list".

What this does do is discourage people from seeking help for their own mental health issues.
 
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J.D. Hall
United States
Oklahoma
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Typical Congress. Could they pass a bill to spend more money to hire counselors and expand bed space for veterans facing mental illness? Nope. They pass a bill saying they should be able to buy guns even if diagnosed with an illness that might make them use it on themselves or someone else.

Thank God we have a Congress looking out for the rights of gun manufacturers, er, owners????
 
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Chris Binkowski
United States
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jonb wrote:
I get that people have second amendment rights, but this just seems like a foolish step.


So there's no existing law that addresses this?
 
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