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Subject: Will this game ever arrive? rss

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Judgement Dave
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EDIT: CSE have messaged me (22nd March 2017) to state that my game must have been lost in transit and stating that they'll send a new copy by tracked courier (DHL iirc) instead of just Canada Post.

They said that they've had a few international backers have this issue and that they'll contact me with a tracking number.

I'll update when I know more - but hopefully if this was just a problem with delivery they'll have learnt and will use a tracked courier for the Fantasy Fantasy Football campaign.

We can hope that their in-campaign/post-campaign communications improve.

Original post follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------
I generally hate it when people warn about a dodgy company - mainly as it is often for project management errors that the company claims to have learnt from and I think mistakes happen to anyone...

But the previous game Fantasy Fantasy Baseball was on Kickstarter and should have delivered 10 months ago. It didn't and for months now communication from CSE games has been practically non-existent or apparently fobbing backers off who want to know when they will get their games.

Reading the KS comments and threads on BGG it looks like no backers outside North America have yet received their game. Indeed many backers in the US and Canada still do not have their game.

(See:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1750633593/fantasy-fant...
Where. Is. This. Game?
Have any backers outside of North America received this?
One of the bigger Kickstarter debacles...
)

Communications from CSE games (the developers/publishers) have been very poor.

The KS was originally meant to deliver the games in May 2016 (10 mths ago). Ok - timetables slip, no great issue as long as backers are updated...

Start of July 2016 - CSE claims that they are about to start shipping the games https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1750633593/fantasy-fant...

Late August 2016 - CSE state that they started shipping games in July https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1750633593/fantasy-fant...

The following KS Updates then changed to backer only - so the general public can't see them.

26 September 2016 - CSE posted this in an update:
Quote:
The good news is that Fantasy Fantasy Baseball has arrived at Amazon North American warehouses. Once received in the Amazon inventory system, fulfillment will begin. We will provide another update the moment that happens.

For our international backers (whose games have already shipped), if you have not received your games by the end of the month, please send us a direct message and we will investigate.


14 October 2016 - CSE state that Amazon has somehow lost the games. They were checked in to Amazon but never made it into inventory... A big issue, but we've already been told that international games have shipped - so they should be on their way still to backers outside North America...

9 November 2016 - CSE tell us that the Amazon stock is still missing, but they're sending some out weekly that they're getting air shipped to them.

23 December 2016 - CSE say:
Quote:
It has been a long, often painful process for all of us, but we're happy to inform you that all remaining units are now being shipped out!


15 January 2017 - CSE post:
Quote:
Missing Your Copy?
Lastly, we have noticed some comments that people haven't received their copies yet. We discovered earlier this week that indeed some pieces did not go out in the last bulk shipment, those has since been shipped. If you have not received your copy of FFB by the end of the week, please message us directly and we'll look into it.


That was the very last update posted by CSE.

On 24th January I messaged them in KS, saying:
Quote:
Hi,

In update #41 you said to message you if we hadn't received our FFB game by the end of the week and you'd look into it.

I've still not received my game. Can you look into it, please.

Cheers

JD


2 weeks later, on 7th Feb I received the following reply:
Quote:
Thanks for the message and pardon the delay. Looks like we had several orders slip through the cracks on the last big shipment. Your copy will be going out within a week. We appreciate your support and patience.


I know from comments here and on the KS that I'm not the only person to receive that 'fell through the cracks' message, promising that it's about to be sent out and yet to still have nothing arrive over a month later.
In fact, it's quite common.

On March 15 2017 CSE did communicate again, by KS mail, but only to tell us all that Fantasy Fantasy Football is coming.

Looking at the CSE website:
- Fantasy Fantasy Baseball should now be in stores - despite many backers not having their copies.
- Fantasy Fantasy Football is being launched on indiegogo - raising more questions about whether they're trying to leave their KS backers high & dry.

More worrying is that in the FFB KS, CSE offered a backer level where you could buy the series of fantasy fantasy games (baseball, football & ice hockey). I, along with 96 other people (of the 497 total backers), backed at this pledge level. We were told that the other games would be KS campaigns.

Now CSE seems to be ignoring our requests for info, not fulfilling the orders and moving to indiegogo, I seriously wonder if they're 'doing a runner' and have no intention of fulfilling any of that 3-game package.


So there you have it. I have no vendetta against the company. I believe mistakes happen in the best of plans - what really matters is how you deal with them. CSE could hardly have dealt with them much worse than they have.

So rather than back the football game, it may be better to wait and see if it ever makes the light of day and buy it from retail.

I'll happily update this thread should the game arrive or significant progress be made. It's still possible that there's been a succession of 1 in a million mistakes and that CSE may come back with a show of brilliant customer service. I'm not holding my breath though.
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Alex Hamilton
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It's exceedingly rare that I post on BGG, but I feel strongly enough about this campaign that a response was warranted.

I pledged for the three-game package, and my experience is largely similar to yours - the primary exception being that I did finally receive the game a few weeks ago. I did as the company asked when they said to send an email after a week of their most recent update. I received no action or response from that until I finally took to Twitter and put not just the corporate Twitter account on blast, but that of their owner and the two game designers. I don't believe Daryl or JR have much direct involvement with the fulfillment aspect, but the fact is that their names are attached to the project, and if they don't want their names associated with failure then it's best if they contact the publisher and have them get on the ball.

In my opinion, the campaign has revealed some significant mismanagement of fulfillment at best, and raw dishonesty at worst. I don't believe it's the latter, frankly, but neither is it an unreasonable conclusion. My biggest concern is for new backers/pledgers who might be interested in the Fantasy Fantasy Football product w/no knowledge of CSE's prior failure - yes, I consider their fulfillment of Fantasy Fantasy Baseball to be a failure - in handling a crowdfunded project. Given how FFB has gone, I can't help but wonder if I'll ever receive the last two (or was it three?) games in the series that I pledged for, and it's questionable at best whether or not Fantasy Fantasy Football ever sees the light of day. The fact that they went to IndieGoGo in itself causes some suspicion in my mind as the vast majority of projects I see launched over there aren't "all or nothing", meaning most of them keep whatever funds were pledged, even if the project's minimum funding threshold isn't satisfied. It's possible that CSE sets their IGG campaign up as an all or nothing project, but for those considering backing, do be careful.

My biggest gripe over the campaign isn't how late the games are arriving - that's annoying, but delays happen - but rather it's their deceptive/misleading/lack of communication throughout the process. I do believe they want to deliver a game, but I also believe they have little to no desire to be honest or transparent about what's happened along the way, and that's a critical component when dealing with venture capital (crowd-sourced as it may be). Even first-time publishers have made mistakes, owned them, and moved on from them successfully. CSE has a number of products and games under its belt but refuses to correspond with its backers and customers in a timely manner. That's a company I choose not to support any longer and, should they fail to deliver FFB to its backers prior to launching Fantasy Fantasy Football, I'll take to Twitter again in attempt to warn folks of a project launched by a questionable crowd-sourcer.
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Daryl Andrews
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I so wish you both, and many others had a better customer service experience. Sadly, CSE Games dropped the ball. I really hope they express apology and learn from this experience. On behalf of JR Honeycutt & I, we say we are sorry for your negative experience. I know it is big of us to ask, but we hope you will forgive and give us another chance.

Personally, I am embarrassed and frustrated by the entire experience. I tried my best from behind the scenes to help. I tried to influence the communication of the FFB campaign. However, I was not legally able to express on behalf of the publisher. I really hope people will give the game a chance and even consider supporting the Football campaign.

I know CSE Games has fulfilled Fantasy Fantasy Baseball. Any of the few people who are still waiting for a copy - please contact me directly and I will do my best to look into your claim. This is not my job - but its the best I can do. Im trying...

Also, I know the move to IndieGoGo has raised some concerns. Personally, I am very excited about the change. From my understanding, this change has nothing to do with not fulfilling the 3 game pack. If anything, it should reassure backers that the other games are still being made. It would be easier for CSE Games to run, instead of face the backlash and push forward trying to make another game. The fact that IndieGoGo allows for a game to fund no matter what should also ensure backers of the 3 pack - that your games will be made no matter what. This is good news. If the game was on KS and didnt fund - then we might have not been able to provide the next sports. Instead, it is CSE Games hope to make all 3 games, and crowdfunding helps make each game a better version.

DiceTower just recently moved to IndieGoGo, and even though people were very sceptical, you will notice over the next year or two, many other publishers and content creators will be making the move too. I am proud Fantasy Fantasy Football will be on IndieGoGo. I also appreciate other crowdfunding websites. I think we have learned from history, it is good for all of us when we have multiple businesses in the same sector. We dont want a monopoly running all crowdfunding.
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Judgement Dave
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beloveserve wrote:
I so wish you both, and many others had a better customer service experience. Sadly, CSE Games dropped the ball. I really hope they express apology and learn from this experience. On behalf of JR Honeycutt & I, we say we are sorry for your negative experience. I know it is big of us to ask, but we hope you will forgive and give us another chance.

Personally, I am embarrassed and frustrated by the entire experience. I tried my best from behind the scenes to help. I tried to influence the communication of the FFB campaign. However, I was not legally able to express on behalf of the publisher. I really hope people will give the game a chance and even consider supporting the Football campaign.

It's annoying that every report I've read from people who have seen/played the game is that it's a good game - so I certainly wouldn't want to dissuade people from buying it and playing it. It's just that it wouldn't be fair of me not to mention how badly CSE have handled this crowdfunding given that they are about to try persuading others to back a new campaign (albeit on indiegogo rather than KS) .

Quote:
I know CSE Games has fulfilled Fantasy Fantasy Baseball. Any of the few people who are still waiting for a copy - please contact me directly and I will do my best to look into your claim. This is not my job - but its the best I can do. Im trying...

Depends what you mean by fulfilled - given that I appear to be far from alone in not having the game yet I'd say they've partially fulfilled the project. Heck - they had fewer than 500 backers (and, iirc, getting on for 50 were $1 backers so may not have pledged for a copy).

My gut feel from the comments I've seen is that they've had a much higher proportion of backers not receive the game than the massive campaigns from the likes of CMON.

It's greatly appreciated that you'll look into it for me - I'll send you a geek mail in a minute - but we both know that you really shouldn't have to. You go all out to design a great game and then get CSE to publish it as they should know what they are doing...

It's also sad that I messaged CSE on KS on the 15th March (straight after they sent the KS message touting FFF) and still haven't had any response from them. It's a very poor show if the only way to get any sort of product (after over a year) is to be lucky enough to be on an independent forum where the game designer offered to help!

Quote:
Also, I know the move to IndieGoGo has raised some concerns. Personally, I am very excited about the change. From my understanding, this change has nothing to do with not fulfilling the 3 game pack.

The move would be fine had they successfully handled/fulfilled the FFB KS. Then it would be a case of:
'we finished that campaign, everyone's happy and so onto the next campaign (which we just happen to be running elsewhere'.

As it is, with many people apparently still waiting for a product that CSE have claimed to have sent/be sending multiple times it's now a case of:
'we're calling that last campaign finished, even though we know full damn well that many people haven't got what they gave us money for, and so onto the next campaign which we're running elsewhere (so there's less possibility of any comeback should the unfulfilled backers kick up a fuss)'.


Quote:
We dont want a monopoly running all crowdfunding.

Quite right - and I never thought that we did!

But what we do want, is all crowdfunding campaigns to act in a reasonable manner, doing their best to fulfil the campaign and providing a reasonable level of communication to backers (especially if there are any problems).

What CSE are doing just now looks suspiciously like the companies that suddenly go out of business one day and then re-open the next day (under a different name/legal entity) having left investors, customers and suppliers out of pocket.

It may not be the case, but radio-silence or half-truths/misinformation from CSE hardly helps them appear totally above board.

BTW - I'll happily say half-truth/misinformation regarding the sparse communication we have been given - since we've been told several times that products have been sent, and on at least 1 occasion were later told that they hadn't.

I'll also happily update this thread to reflect the change should CSE do an amazing recovery and show great customer service, though, as stated in my OP, I'm not holding my breath for that.
 
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Judgement Dave
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I put this update at the start of my OP, but repeat it here so anyone subscribed to this thread doesn't miss it:

EDIT: CSE have messaged me (22nd March 2017) to state that my game must have been lost in transit and stating that they'll send a new copy by tracked courier (DHL iirc) instead of just Canada Post.

They said that they've had a few international backers have this issue and that they'll contact me with a tracking number.

I'll update when I know more - but hopefully if this was just a problem with delivery they'll have learnt and will use a tracked courier for the Fantasy Fantasy Football campaign.

We can hope that their in-campaign/post-campaign communications improve.
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Steve M
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Exactly the same as me, Dave. There is hope.

Maybe there's some devious dude from Canada Post who's made a quirky gaming table out of an EU-bound pallet of all those missing FF Baseball copies?!
wow

Fingers crossed we get to see the games soon...
 
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Fabio Del Rio
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Hi all - we know a handfull of games are still outstanding, if you're affected, message me here and we'll get them to you.
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Michael Seman

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Be sure to blame whatever post office you can when making up new lies about people who haven't gotten their games. Lost in the mail? Give me a break
 
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Michael Seman

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What happens when FFF doesn't fund? Besides karmic justice. What happens to the people who wasted their money by giving it to you for the 3 game pack? This company's actions (or inactions) and lies are nothing short of deplorable. Complete garbage.
 
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Seriously, NOTHING forbids someone from commenting on their own Kickstarter when hundreds of people are asking for information and being absolutely and *intentionally* blown off and ignored for months and months.

The willful act of ignoring customers is 100% the fault of every single individual who concocted and embroiled themselves in the lame duck Kickstarter. When backers are asking month in and month out for information and getting intentional silence (interspersed with near immediate feedback on other comments related to gameplay rules), and when the result of getting pushback on this is to go play a blame game and not take 100% responsibility, then it means there are no lessons learned other than "let's pretend that didn't happen and move on to Indie Go Go."

Quote:
I know CSE Games has fulfilled Fantasy Fantasy Baseball.


No. They. Have. Not. Look back on the Kickstarter page and see the people still awaiting copies. Seriously, it's like someone who returns a library book ten years after it's due, and then claims that since they "promptly return their library books, they should get to check out another book."

The game itself is decent. Not great. Not bad. The meta-game of watching the designers try to tap into a different pool of gamers on Indie Go Go while leaving their previous gaming pool coughing in a dust cloud of double talk is far more interesting, though I'd still rate the experience a 0.

Fooled once, most of us learned all we needed to know about your ventures. Fooled twice? I doubt you'll get (nor have earned) the opportunity.
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Judgement Dave
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To be fair, I have been in communication with the publisher and:

- My game been sent by courier with tracking - it's currently in a Chicago hub iirc.

- I passed on some pointers on crowdsourcing communications, which seem to have been well received and will hopefully let CSE games do a better job in future campaigns.

It does now look like mr Cockup came to stay for a while and the comms were very poor, but it also looks like 'it' is finally getting there and the creator should, imo, be given a second chance.

Of course, only you can decide whether a second chance is now, with FFF, or the next campaign so that you've had chance to check that they have fulfilled all FFB orders and have improved communications.

PS - As has been said by the creator - contact them if you've not received your FFB game yet.
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Michael Seman

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Couldn't disagree more. Their actions have been shady and inexcusable. The post above yours explains my thoughts perfectly. Glad to see FFF indiegogo aka hiding from Kickstarter backlash campaign has been closed. Just read on the FFB comments that one of the 4 who pledged $275 for his deluxe copies of all 3 still hasn't received anything. Brutal! I agree people should start contacting the publisher though. And ask for refunds for the games they most likely won't be receiving. Brutal!!!
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Tim Royal
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beloveserve wrote:
Also, I know the move to IndieGoGo has raised some concerns. Personally, I am very excited about the change. From my understanding, this change has nothing to do with not fulfilling the 3 game pack. If anything, it should reassure backers that the other games are still being made.

It would be easier for CSE Games to run, instead of face the backlash and push forward trying to make another game. The fact that IndieGoGo allows for a game to fund no matter what should also ensure backers of the 3 pack - that your games will be made no matter what. This is good news. If the game was on KS and didnt fund - then we might have not been able to provide the next sports. Instead, it is CSE Games hope to make all 3 games, and crowdfunding helps make each game a better version.

DiceTower just recently moved to IndieGoGo, and even though people were very sceptical, you will notice over the next year or two, many other publishers and content creators will be making the move too. I am proud Fantasy Fantasy Football will be on IndieGoGo. I also appreciate other crowdfunding websites. I think we have learned from history, it is good for all of us when we have multiple businesses in the same sector. We dont want a monopoly running all crowdfunding.


So I have to ask. I saw the IndieGoGo for a couple weeks, and then it disappeared. Then, FFF winds up back on Kickstarter now? Seems like the switch to IndieGoGO had tons of rationales above, including "funding no matter what". Now, it's back to the KS again, which is described above as 'worse' than IndieGoGo in many ways?

What's the scoop on the oscillation between 'bad' KS and 'good' IGG and then back to 'bad' KS? :\

I'd love to pull the trigger on FFF to complement my copy of FFB, but I'd like to know a bit more about the above.

THanks.
 
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