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Subject: 1991 version compared to 2012 version rss

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Narff
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Well, I'm seriously thinking of buying the 2012 version but because of various reasons, I'm considering the old version too (see here), and I would like to go the better way between the two. I know that the two games are really good and play a bit differently but I'm not totally sure about the one to go.

So here are my questions...
1) Why do you like one more over the over ? What are his strongest points compared to the other version ? And what can be his turn-off points compared to the other version ?
2) Are ground friendly battalion really lacking in the 2012 version ?
3) Since the 2012 version is out, are you still hooked by it ?
4) If I buy one version, is it worth it to buy the other ? (especially if I go first with the 2012 version) Or is 2012 version making 1991 version obsolete ?
5) Are there as much interesting choices (strategic, tactical) to do in the two versions ?
6) How is the replayability/variety of the 1991 version compared to the 2012 one ?
7) I really like the concept of following your pilots through missions, during a campaign : are the two game functioning/feeling the same on this ?
8) How is difficulty of 1991 version vs 2012 one ?

For now, I'm more inclined to buy the 2012 version (based on feedback, video reviews & of gameplay): I love the material (look, quality & better displayed infos), I like the idea of streamlined rules, and there seems to be a lot more pilots.
But I'm playing the vassal version of 1991 version (I'm only at the second turn of my first campaign though) : game seems great too, and I liked some mechanics who aren't there on 2012 edition (tracking shot, enemies moving to cover depending on troop quality).

On the bad sides, 2012 edition is more expensive, and I have chances to have some misprinted cards (see my thread).
The 1991 edition will be second hand : in itself, that's not really a problem (as long as transaction goes smoothly), but I have to find one in very good condition, complete and affordable (please remember that I live in France ). And I must say that for now, even if I find the rules interesting, I find them a bit... heavier than it could've been on some points and I still have to do back and forth with rules because of some lacking infos on material (but I think it's due too to the fact I'm trying it on vassal, which is really hard for me : I've always hard times playing a boardgame on computer, & I don't like it).

Sorry for this long message, I only wanted to be the most clear possible. Don't bother answering precise points if you don't want to, you can do a "general answer"
Thanks in advance for any help
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Andrew Walters
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General answer, because it's been so long since I thought about the original version: get the new version.

There are more situations, more different aircraft, more different weapons. There are nicer components. The rules were improved overall.

I think if you look around the differences have been carefully enumerated somewhere. I think I made some comments in the unboxing video I did. Take a look around for details.
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Andrew Walters
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I *knew* I wasted a bunch of time on this five years ago...

The Big List of Differences between editions...
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John Paul Messerly
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general answer:
I have both editions but I played the 2012 edition first and loved it. I bought the earlier edition later because I wanted to see how the friendly ground units worked and planned on porting them over to the new system. After playing the original edition I lost all interest in the new edition.

2012 edition:
This edition has far more replay-ability options for pilots and aircraft (but the original edition has more replay-ability in the AI settings).

Each pilot has several cards representing their different states of leveling experience. I actually find dealing with these cards more trouble then they are worth usually.

The terrain hexes are easier to track LOS than the cards and look better.

There are far more aircraft choices.


original edition:
Very fast to setup and play because the starting choices are limited.

Friendly ground forces show up on the battalion map and are an important part of the game. I wish they showed up on the actual mission/terrain map instead but that would make the game far more complex.

Enemy quality and moral make replaying the same missions more exciting.

Enemy deployments aren't preset for battalions. You actually roll on a chart to see exactly how many of each possible unit can show up. This adds variety but also slows down the game. It also means you don't know exactly what you will be facing until you are on the way to the target which makes things less gamey.


This is the other thing I like about the original... the card art. This really brings to life the battalions for me.

I also prefer simplicity of the pilot/aricraft recovery/repair system in this edition.


...

More thoughts:
I play the original edition with the hex tiles from the new edition and for me this is the best of both worlds. I find that the new edition has too many options and I spend too much time dealing with picking aircraft and pilots. The original edition has support aircraft that can go on missions with you or go on their own missions but that don't require a lot of micro management (this reminds me of squad troopers in Warfighter).



In the end I found the original edition simpler to setup and play and I find the AI more dynamic and threatening (especially the way enemy aircraft appear). The new edition is great but I find it more of a puzzle because of all the known information. I feel like I'm flying into more danger with each mission in the original edition and that I can quickly and easily deal with secondary missions and support aircraft.


...

For a new player:
The original edition has less choices to get caught up on early (quicker setup) but the new edition has a much clearer rule book (and video examples of play online) to make it easier to learn the game. If you prefer newer editions and flashier components I suggest the new one. if you are fine with older components are old school rulebooks (no glossy photos and few visual examples) then you might give the original edition a chance.

hopefully this will be helpful...

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Narff
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andreww wrote:

General answer, because it's been so long since I thought about the original version: get the new version.

(it sounds like you absolutely have no regrets to have switched to the new version )
andreww wrote:

There are more situations, more different aircraft, more different weapons. There are nicer components. The rules were improved overall.

I see, so for you it's a total & absolute improvement and so the version to own.
Are there things you find personally lacking/not as good compared to the old edition, or nothing special comes into your mind ?
andreww wrote:
I *knew* I wasted a bunch of time on this five years ago..The Big List of Differences between editions...

Woaow, that's impressive ! Thanks for it ! I've read it, and it was pretty interesting since I've read most of the rules of the 1991's version (well, I haven't exactly understood all the points since I don't know the rules of 1991's version that well, but it was still useful).
Thanks a lot for this !

mermuse wrote:
general answer:
I have both editions but I played the 2012 edition first and loved it. [...] After playing the original edition I lost all interest in the new edition. [...] In the end I found the original edition simpler to setup and play and I find the AI more dynamic and threatening (especially the way enemy aircraft appear).

mermuse wrote:
For a new player:
The original edition has less choices to get caught up on early (quicker setup) but the new edition has a much clearer rule book (and video examples of play online) to make it easier to learn the game. If you prefer newer editions and flashier components I suggest the new one. if you are fine with older components are old school rulebooks (no glossy photos and few visual examples) then you might give the original edition a chance.

I must say that new version's components are really attracting me. I'm not against older components, that's simply that, despite older ones pleasing me, the new ones are really... catching my attention And I find them a lot more "information efficient", which is pretty nice for me (I appreciate when I don't have to look in a table if it can be avoided for example).
May I ask you, concerning the setup time : how much time would you estimate for each edition ?

mermuse wrote:

hopefully this will be helpful...

Yes it is, and I really appreciate Thanks for taking the time of writing your thoughts and illustrating them !
For now, I think there are good chances that I'll go for the 2012 version (sorry ), but you're helping me well to know a lot better what points are really different between the two versions, and so to take a better decision according to what I could prefer.


But something was said that worries me a bit :
mermuse wrote:
The new edition is great but I find it more of a puzzle because of all the known information.

This is something which is worrying me a little : are still the battles in the new version feeling "alive" ? And not only a "puzzle" where you mostly have to optimize and that's all ?
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John Paul Messerly
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narff wrote:

May I ask you, concerning the setup time : how much time would you estimate for each edition ?


mermuse wrote:
The new edition is great but I find it more of a puzzle because of all the known information.

This is something which is worrying me a little : are still the battles in the new version feeling "alive" ? And not only a "puzzle" where you mostly have to optimize and that's all ?


The 2012 edition is great and its really the best place to start.

The difference in setup time isn't that big of a deal. Fans have made tools for random pilot and aircraft selection that can make it super fast. My problem was that I could spend tons of time looking over all the different versions of all the pilots endlessly.

The 2012 edition definitely isn't a puzzle... there are always difficult choices to make and its very challenging. I played it happily for years and never felt like anything was missing until I tried the original.
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Matthew Jones
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I am going to chime in here.

I have both versions. I like the situations, weapons, aircraft, and enemies of the new version. I did NOT think the artwork was a step up. I'm not a fan of DVG's newer 2005+ computerized art. Thank goodness for them (and bad for my wallet) the games and gameplay are topnotch.

What really turned my crank about the '91 version was that I felt like I was part of an actual campaign. My ground forces often did better if I was successful (but not always), and as I progressed, I could reach those further away targets with more ordinance. I felt as though my choices were important, but also limited by the rest of the campaign happening around me.

That was not the feel I got from the new game, which felt more like Hornet Leader where I just picked target packages and prosecuted them to the best of my resources and ability and less like I was helping in a campaign where troops were gaining/losing ground.

They are both very good, and I tinkered with a way to incorporate the '91 Campaign system into the '12 version, but I never got it off the ground. Clearly I waffle here, but if you pinned me down in the sandbox and wouldn't let me up, I'd have to say I prefer the '91 version.
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Narff
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So, I finally bought the 2012 edition
But I think I will may be buy the 91' edition in the future : everything you said and my plays on vassal definitely show that the feel & qualities are different between the two games, and I understand perfectly why you can love more the 91' version.

Thanks again for your thoughts, precisions & feel, all of you !
That was really useful
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Andrew Walters
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The only thing I consciously miss about the old game is the intel rolls in original Hornet Leader. Everything else in both games is either better, a wash, or something you don't miss.
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Dan Beckler
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Report back once you get your game! Let us know if it arrived complete or missing anything, as well as how you like it once you get a play or two under your belt.
 
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Narff
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andreww wrote:

The only thing I consciously miss about the old game is the intel rolls in original Hornet Leader. Everything else in both games is either better, a wash, or something you don't miss.

I don't know the original Hornet Leader, so thats not a problem for me, but good thing you rise it for people eventually interested

wedgeantilles1971 wrote:
Report back once you get your game! Let us know if it arrived complete or missing anything, as well as how you like it once you get a play or two under your belt.

Yeah sure, I'll be doing it right now !
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