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Subject: Flying Spaghetti Monster - In or Out? rss

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Roberto Di Meglio
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In this poll, we want you (especially if you are a backer of our Kickstarter) to answer a simple question - should the Flying Spaghetti Monster be featured in the game as one of the "modern" divinities to be included, alongside with Cthulhu - or not?

And if we replace him - who should replace it?

The poll closes March, 25th, when the Kickstarter ends.

Poll: Flying Spaghetti Monster - In or Out?
Should the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER be featured in Divinity Derby?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
Holy Pasta, yes!
49.3% 107
No, I find it inappropriate.
27.6% 60
I do not really care. I just like the game no matter what.
23.0% 50
Voters 217
This poll is now closed.   217 answers
Poll created by cybernex
Closes: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:00 am


Poll
Which one of the following divinities would you prefer to be featured in Divinity Derby?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (as proposed now).
22.2% 49
Easter, Goddess of Spring.
8.6% 19
Indra, Hindu God of Sky.
13.6% 30
Sandman, God of Dreams.
27.6% 61
Ba'al, Supreme God of the Phoenicians.
28.1% 62
Voters 221
This poll is now closed.   221 answers
Poll created by cybernex
Closes: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:00 am


EDIT: As a large percentage of voters indicated their preference for not including the FSM, we ruled it out (but it is available - together with Cthulhu - as an optional add-on, free in the Deluxe Edition). The two winners from this poll (Ba'al and Sandman/Morpheus) are now faced against two goddesses suggested by our backers in a new poll.
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Frankberg Almeida
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Actually, I want many gods as possible: modern, ancient, from books, movies or comics, whatever! More gods means more replayability (of course, since its powers are balanced).
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Seems tacky and inappropriate to me. It would actually make the game *less* attractive in my opinion. It ruins the classical, yet fun, vibe the game has. Well, including Cthulhu already did that, but this is a step beyond...

cybernex wrote:
should the Flying Spaghetti Monster be featured in the game as one of the "modern" divinities to be included, alongside with Cthulhu - or not?
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Larry Geyer
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BOLD PREDICTION:
This thread will probably be quickly locked or moved to the RSP forum.
;-) (this alone should help guide your choice!)


I'm probably going to back this project in the last days, but I have to say, the FSM & Cthulu both seem so very out of place.

The base game has the delightful feel of a smash up of classical mythology wacky-races and having any 20th century creations hits the wrong note.


I've had enough Cthulu in my gaming. Overdone & boring. It's like all the zombie games a few years ago -- a crutch d'jour for designers to lean on.


As for the FSM, it was devised as an attack on one religion in particular (Christianity) and is used by some atheists to mock it. You should probably include some way to mock other major world religions such as Islam and Judaism to balance it's presence. Obviously that's sarcasm, but in pop-culture lately, it's seems like its cool to bash Christians in certain circles. I find it more boorish than offensive personally. If it is included as a stretch goal, I'd probably trash it.


I've been looking for a game in the spirit of Tortoise and the Hare that had just a little more depth to it and I think I found it in this project. There's a wealth of interesting mythologies from various world cultures. I'd ask that you be clever and not boring in your approach.
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Roberto Di Meglio
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Lancelot42 wrote:

BOLD PREDICTION:
This thread will probably be quickly locked or moved to the RSP forum.
;-) (this alone should help guide your choice!)


I'm probably going to back this project in the last days, but I have to say, the FSM & Cthulu both seem so very out of place.

The base game has the delightful feel of a smash up of classical mythology wacky-races and having any 20th century creations hits the wrong note.


I've had enough Cthulu in my gaming. Overdone & boring. It's like all the zombie games a few years ago -- a crutch d'jour for designers to lean on.


As for the FSM, it was devised as an attack on one religion in particular (Christianity) and is used by some atheists to mock it. You should probably include some way to mock other major world religions such as Islam and Judaism to balance it's presence. Obviously that's sarcasm, but in pop-culture lately, it's seems like its cool to bash Christians in certain circles. I find it more boorish than offensive personally. If it is included as a stretch goal, I'd probably trash it.


I've been looking for a game in the spirit of Tortoise and the Hare that had just a little more depth to it and I think I found it in this project. There's a wealth of interesting mythologies from various world cultures. I'd ask that you be clever and not boring in your approach.


Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.

As we said, the intention was definitely NOT to attack any religion, and even less so, a specific one. Even Pagan gods may be offending to a believer, if he's a very strict one; and on the other end, many religious people declared not to be offended at all by the presence of the FSM in a game.
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Levente Domonkos
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I think FSM is just stupid,I dont feel offended but I dont want it in the game this is something like most promos for games which people will never ever play cause they are just too stupid. Including more gods is a big YES from me but please only include gods that fit the others, ancient ones. Cthulhu is a bit off too but its kinda cool still cause every game needs an obligatory Cthulhu in it(Smash Up reference )
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Brandon Holmes
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FSM does not offend me but was just so stupid and silly that between it and Cthulhu I stopped caring about this Kickstarter and dropped my pledge. I had an early bird deluxe and I was hoping that we would get some usable add-ones to justify the deluxe pledge but these are basically garbage I would never use. Might as well put old candy bar wrappers in the box instead. Variant gods that could use the existing mini's, weather effects or random events, upgraded money etc. those were things I was expecting to see. As it is I can just wait for retail and see the reviews if I am not going to get anything to justify my support. I have since moved my pledge money to another Kickstarter but hopefully your company learns from this. If you wanted to add FSM or Cthulhu as a fun joke you do it near the end of a campaign, when you are running out of usable stretch goals that provide actual value (these don't even have to be costly, something like variant rules can be enough sometimes as long as they provide replay value) and want something to throw in. I really think they killed any momentum you had.
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Brandon Holmes
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I almost wish you'd cancel the campaign and start again with new stretch goals lol. I may consider repledging.
 
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Joe Hauser
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Interesting that 9 people in the 1st poll vote to keep it, but only 6 people in the 2nd poll vote for it.
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Larry Geyer
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cybernex wrote:

Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.



So, to paraphrase your own words, you've made the choice as a company to mock all religions.

Interesting.

One example in the gaming hobby I'd site as a parallel to this is Five Tribes. There was a component in that game that some people found offensive even though that was not the intent of the designer. I thought the entire thing was a bit overblown, but I also thought that the publisher of that game handled the situation with grace.


You have many comments on your kickstarter comments page on the issue at hand in your campaign, so much so that you decided to place this poll here. It will be interesting to see how you choose to react to the people who you've offended, even if that was not your intent.

Sadly, this whole thing is a distraction from what otherwise looks like a fine product.
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Joe Hauser
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Lancelot42 wrote:
cybernex wrote:

Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.



So, to paraphrase your own words, you've made the choice as a company to mock all religions.

Interesting.

One example in the gaming hobby I'd site as a parallel to this is Five Tribes. There was a component in that game that some people found offensive even though that was not the intent of the designer. I thought the entire thing was a bit overblown, but I also thought that the publisher of that game handled the situation with grace.


You have many comments on your kickstarter comments page on the issue at hand in your campaign, so much so that you decided to place this poll here. It will be interesting to see how you choose to react to the people who you've offended, even if that was not your intent.

Sadly, this whole thing is a distraction from what otherwise looks like a fine product.


For me it is not a matter of being offended, it is that it does not fit in with the other deities. They are long established classical deities while the FSM was made up in 2005 as an attempt to discredit the intelligent design theory.
 
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Jonathan McAnulty
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cybernex wrote:


Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.


The Flying Spaghetti Monster is indeed an entity meant to mock, belittle and ridicule believers in general. But is it most specifically and commonly used as a means to mock and belittle devout Christians. The inclusion of such a thing in your campaign is not exactly a welcoming gesture to individuals of faith. You are essentially saying that you are fine with mocking, belittling and ridiculing faith in general and devout Christians in particular.

The other dieties, in contrast, while pagan, are also mostly not worshipped today, and are not, by their very inclusion, mocking or belittling of anyone.
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Kyle A
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jhauser42 wrote:
Lancelot42 wrote:
cybernex wrote:

Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.



So, to paraphrase your own words, you've made the choice as a company to mock all religions.

Interesting.

One example in the gaming hobby I'd site as a parallel to this is Five Tribes. There was a component in that game that some people found offensive even though that was not the intent of the designer. I thought the entire thing was a bit overblown, but I also thought that the publisher of that game handled the situation with grace.


You have many comments on your kickstarter comments page on the issue at hand in your campaign, so much so that you decided to place this poll here. It will be interesting to see how you choose to react to the people who you've offended, even if that was not your intent.

Sadly, this whole thing is a distraction from what otherwise looks like a fine product.


For me it is not a matter of being offended, it is that it does not fit in with the other deities. They are long established classical deities while the FSM was made up in 2005 as an attempt to discredit the intelligent design theory.


Established religion has been shitting on discrediting science for thousands of years, so it shouldn't really matter when something was "made up"
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alexankh wrote:
jhauser42 wrote:
Lancelot42 wrote:
cybernex wrote:

Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.



So, to paraphrase your own words, you've made the choice as a company to mock all religions.

Interesting.

One example in the gaming hobby I'd site as a parallel to this is Five Tribes. There was a component in that game that some people found offensive even though that was not the intent of the designer. I thought the entire thing was a bit overblown, but I also thought that the publisher of that game handled the situation with grace.


You have many comments on your kickstarter comments page on the issue at hand in your campaign, so much so that you decided to place this poll here. It will be interesting to see how you choose to react to the people who you've offended, even if that was not your intent.

Sadly, this whole thing is a distraction from what otherwise looks like a fine product.


For me it is not a matter of being offended, it is that it does not fit in with the other deities. They are long established classical deities while the FSM was made up in 2005 as an attempt to discredit the intelligent design theory.


Established religion has been shitting on discrediting science for thousands of years, so it shouldn't really matter when something was "made up"


Counting down to RSP: T -10.
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Bryce Nelson
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Another Early Bird Deluxe Backer that has dropped here.

It wasn't that the Flying Spaghetti Monster was offensive, it was that it was so out of place that it was ridiculously tacky. Cthulhu was bad enough as a stretch goal, even though I am a fan of the Mythos, it was really out of place with other gods from classical era gods and the like. I think Cthulhu and the FSM would be better served as a "Modern Deities add-on", or a convention promo, so the people that want them could have them. Let the stretch goals that add gods to the pledge be more representations of traditions of actual older civilizations.

FSM was definitely a jump of the shark, with Cthulhu being the filling up of the shark tank. I thought "Well, they have officially run out of ideas, so this campaign is boring now." Especially when there were so many other traditions you could have hit for ideas instead. In this poll you already showed other gods that would have been way better than Spaghetti face and, well, um, Spaghetti face.

If the game were to look like that, I would consider re-picking up my pledge
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Roberto Di Meglio
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Lancelot42 wrote:
cybernex wrote:

Larry, if a "meaning" is to be attached to the FSM it's definitely not "anti-Christian". It is intended as satire of ALL religion, as it's a very absurd non-existent being.



So, to paraphrase your own words, you've made the choice as a company to mock all religions.

Interesting.

One example in the gaming hobby I'd site as a parallel to this is Five Tribes. There was a component in that game that some people found offensive even though that was not the intent of the designer. I thought the entire thing was a bit overblown, but I also thought that the publisher of that game handled the situation with grace.


You have many comments on your kickstarter comments page on the issue at hand in your campaign, so much so that you decided to place this poll here. It will be interesting to see how you choose to react to the people who you've offended, even if that was not your intent.

Sadly, this whole thing is a distraction from what otherwise looks like a fine product.


First, I would not call it a "company choice". It was a developer's (mine) choice to which the company did not object. Which is not the same (that is - if someone is taking offense, feel free to blame me personally).

That said, I was answering to your assertion that "You should probably include some way to mock other major world religions such as Islam and Judaism to balance it's presence. " That is, YOU were inviting us to feel free to joke about Christianity as long as we did the same about everyone else's religion.

What *I* am saying, is that my understanding is that the FSM was intended (by its inventor) as a *pun* on religion in general, not a specific one in particular. So to that regard, YOUR request was satisfied.

However MY intention was never to mock religion, or anybody's beliefs. It's a game. It includes legendary creatures. The FSM was just one more (and visually funny) being, with an interesting back-story. A modern legend.

I now understand you and some other people find the FSM offensive. However, a neo-Pagan could well find our treatment of Odin offensive, couldn't he? Or somebody who does not like "false gods" to be spotlighted, or magic (there are quite a few around of this mind) could well dislike EVERYTHING which is in the game.
Several backers suggested us to include a Hindu deity (one is also included in the poll) - however, there are a LOT of people who still worship TODAY Hindu deities. Maybe including one will offend them? (Probably not, as I understand Hindus are less sensitive about this kind of things- but I could be wrong, of course, as I was wrong about the sensibilities offended by the FSM).

So, you see, it's not easy to deal with *any* subject without SOMEONE finding reason to feel offended, no matter how careful you try to be.

Again - from my point of view, the FSM is just another legendary being, like the dozen other ones featured in the game. The only difference from the other beings in the game, it's a modern one - until now, that's the only difference I saw between Cthulhu, FSM, Pegasus or Marduk.

Like Cthulhu, FSM was included to portray the fact that deities were gathered all over space-time (by the way, the other deities in the game are also divided by thousands of years and miles!).

We DID realize that both Chtulhu and FSM were less consistent with the milieu - that's why they are not "core" deities but stretch goals (essentially, free promos included in the Deluxe Edition).

But we are willing to listen to our backers, and we do not see any reason to get people angry about a couple of images in a game. Based on the early results of the poll, it's clear the FSM (and Cthulhu by extension) are divisive, and that's the last thing we want to do.
We will replace the "modern" and out of place deities with different characters, as clearly there is a wide consensus this is the thing to do (for different reasons).

On the other end, some of the backers might as well have been ATTRACTED to our game because of the presence of Cthulhu and the FSM. So, out of respect of THEIR opinion, we will include them as free add-ons. Anybody who is not interested, may just forfeit adding them to the rewards.


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Zillah Patterson
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I find including modern gods disrupts the atmosphere. Also why no goddesses? I voted for Easter - this game needs some ladies.
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I feel that people offended are being overly sensitive and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. That said, I do feel that Cthulu and FSM are both extremely out of place. I think this game will do well but the campaign's stretch goals did not do it justice. Getting back to classic pantheons is a good move and hopefully will reignite that hype!
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It's your right not to be offended. Make use of it.
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Notgiven wrote:
It's your right not to be offended. Make use of it.


It is possible to "not be offended" and still make a rational decision not to give financial support to a company that chooses to attack you, even if the attack is indirect. There is no obligation to give money to those who are promoting things you disagree with.

I assume that the publishers of Cards Against Humanity know that there is a certain segment of the gaming population that will never give them money. They don't try to cater to that group. They embrace what they do, and run with it, confident that the ones they do appeal to are sufficient. In a similar vein, once a company decides to promote the FSM, they have made (intentional or not) a philosophical statement and a marketing choice. They either need to embrace that choice or else understand why they just lost paying customers.

In some ways, the decision Ares has made to try and have their cake and eat it too, by still offering the FSM as an add on, but not including it with the regular deluxe game, is probably the worst they can do. They have upset some of those who wanted a blatant promotion of the FSM, and they are still promoting the FSM such that those who didn't want to give them money aren't going to be exactly mollified. When making philosophical statements of faith, it's very hard to straddle the fence.

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Roberto Di Meglio
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Wicht73 wrote:
Notgiven wrote:
It's your right not to be offended. Make use of it.


It is possible to "not be offended" and still make a rational decision not to give financial support to a company that chooses to attack you, even if the attack is indirect. There is no obligation to give money to those who are promoting things you disagree with.

I assume that the publishers of Cards Against Humanity know that there is a certain segment of the gaming population that will never give them money. They don't try to cater to that group. They embrace what they do, and run with it, confident that the ones they do appeal to are sufficient. In a similar vein, once a company decides to promote the FSM, they have made (intentional or not) a philosophical statement and a marketing choice. They either need to embrace that choice or else understand why they just lost paying customers.

In some ways, the decision Ares has made to try and have their cake and eat it too, by still offering the FSM as an add on, but not including it with the regular deluxe game, is probably the worst they can do. They have upset some of those who wanted a blatant promotion of the FSM, and they are still promoting the FSM such that those who didn't want to give them money aren't going to be exactly mollified. When making philosophical statements of faith, it's very hard to straddle the fence.



I doubt there's anybody out there who "want a blatant promotion of the FSM". We explained our stance fully, and I strongly think you definitely read too much (or want to read too much) into all this. There's no political or philosophical or religious statement in this game. It's a light and fun game featuring divine beings imagined by humanity at various times in history, and in various places all over the world. That's it.

As you can see from the poll, the vast majority of backers do not care, or are ok with the FSM (hence it is included).
But some are not... and they have the option of either taking the game without it - the game is as good without one or two gods as it is with them (you cannot play with more than 6 anyway) or backing out.
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Zack Hiwiller
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cybernex wrote:
There's no political or philosophical or religious statement in this game.


I don't want to get into this thread because these always devolve, but I do want to note that this statement cannot be true. The conscious choice to include or exclude philosophical or religious entities is itself a philosophical or religious statement. Why isn't Yahweh a playable character? Or Xenu? Or Jesus? Or Mohammad? The designer likely decided not to include these for myriad reasons, some of which are essentially social in nature.

Whether or not someone _should_ be offended or not is a matter of values, which I won't weigh in on.
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Roberto Di Meglio
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Zach, the reason - of course - is that we did not want to have any divinity from present-day, real world religions, exactly to try to avoid the type of issues we are debating now.

That's why initially we did not even include Hindu deities, for example.
Of course also trying NOT to make a religious statement becomes a statement of sort.

The fact that a fictional entity like the FSM may be more offensive to people's sensibilities than a bunch of other fictional entities like a Pegasus or Marduk never occurred to us.
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Joshua Reubens
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Getting offended by the FSM is mind boggling. I guess you could just make it a tea pot and hope those same people don't understand that it comes from people making the same commentary...
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Roberto Di Meglio
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Everybody, please vote your favorites on the final poll!

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1750309/final-poll-new-gods...
 
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