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Subject: Never ending game rss

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tom-le-termite
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So yesterday I ended up in a weird situation I was not sure on how to proceed from there as I could not find any clue in the rules.

this is the situation:

-2 player game.
-only 4 elements spots left on the evolution track
-my opponent had 5 final evolution cards in his hand
-I had 4 final evolution and one high evolution card in my hand.

-to be able to place my high evolution card, I had to pick up some water and bring planet B to orbit VII.
-Unfortunately, my opponent needed planet B on orbit IV.

-Orbit 4 and 5 were depleted in elements.

With this situation, the following happened.

I move planet B from IV to V.
He moves it back to IV
I move it back to V
etc. for a dozen round.

The problem is that he could not spend any tokens because he only had final evolution and on my side, I could not spend any token, because I had no cards that I could downgrade, and I could not play my only high evolution card because the goals was out of reach.

Therefore, we could never spend any token, and finish the evolution track.

We just stopped the game after this back and forth nonsense and played our final evolution cards.


My question is: what to do in this dead end situation beside arbitrarily stopping the game.

Alternatively, even if there is a possible move to do, this back and forth can go on forever if the two player have opposite objectives, and resuming the game may only rely on one of the player to "give up" the back and forth and let the other player with the move by boredom.

any thoughts?
 
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David Forby
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tom-le-termite wrote:
-my opponent had 5 final evolution cards in his hand


The maximum you can have is 4 Final Evolution cards.
tom-le-termite wrote:

-to be able to place my high evolution card, I had to pick up some water and bring planet B to orbit VII.
-Unfortunately, my opponent needed planet B on orbit IV.

-Orbit 4 and 5 were depleted in elements.


It sounds like the elements you needed still existed on the board. You could always move the Element to the orbit you wanted. Move the Matter token(in Acceleration Mode you move Matter Tokens twice. Then once the Element is in the orbit that you needed, basically your opponent's orbit, you Sweep the Orbit collecting the element. You then on your next turn move the planet and play the card, then trigger the Final Evolution Card play, This would mean that you would go first on your Evolution Cards. Then once you were done, your opponent would get 1 move (move the planet where he needed it (1 orbit away) and then he plays.

Simple.

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tom-le-termite
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Thanks. this fixes a few problems. although I needed B in orbit VII to place my card so this was not going to happen.


edit: and he was mean enough to take all the elements from me, or move them back out my reach, as i was trying to bring them close enough for me to take... so still no possibility of getting my water regardless of orbit VII.

I therefore can still see a possible game where the game cannot end, especially, if you don't have cards you can play toward the end and no downgrades in your hand.
 
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David Forby
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I tend to play a Friendly game myself. But if he is purposely taking all the matter in this situation, he is being a dick. To balance this, I would make him discard one of his Final Evolution cards and draw a High or Low Evolution card or forfeit the game. I would also house rule that if nobody plays a card and a planet makes a full revolution around the sun then proceed with Final Evolution.

I am willing to bet that he had a Downgrade card in his Final Evolution cards as well and could easily solve this by downgrading. He was just being mean to you. This is how I see it. Because I play a friendly game, Mean and Spiteful players tend not to be repeat players at my table.

He was purposely deadlocking the game. While in some games that can be considered a win but in my book it is in a way cheating.

Now, If he didn't know that it was not possible to have 5 Final Evolution cards then he can be given the benefit of the doubt. Once you discovered this rule then you can: 1 make him discard any Downgrade Final Evolution cards, 2. Forfeit the the game for violating the rules, or 3. Create a House rule. I recommend one of the following:

1. A Matter Token is lost each time a planet makes a full revolution around the sun, marked by passing it's starting position, if not in that orbit, you still can draw a line to the sun from that position and have a marker point. When no mater is left: Final Evolution.
2. Move a Matter token and a Planet each turn once a planet makes a full rotation around the sun. The extra matter token you move will move toward the closest planet, always. This will make it so all the matter tokens are used eventually. Once they are: Final Evolution.
3. Increase Acceleration each 2 turns: Matter tokens can move 3 moves, then 4, then 5..ect. Like in 2: Final Evolution when no matter is left.

These options can help speed up the game and end it. I think that each of them follows the spirit of the game. Once Matter is gone then the Solar System is built.
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tom-le-termite
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Well, from his point of view, I was the dick who keep taking the planet away from the orbit he wanted

Anyway, regardless of the small mistake we did on the rules, I can see the possible issue of locked game, depending on the cards in hand.

All of your suggestions are good possibilities, but I feel like this kind of situation should have been playtested fully and included in the original rules, instead of houseruling as we go and we encounter new cases of possible issue.
 
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David Forby
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Maybe we can get a rules 1.2 version. An official ruling on this type of stalemate.

I don't think you were a dick for trying to complete a High Evolution card when all he had is Final Evolution cards. In my mind you were trying to get to the end game, while he was just setting up for the end game. It sounds like he was ahead on points prior to this stalemate.

I can see where players each have a High Evolution card that wont downgrade or if the low evolution cards are gone where this type of stalemate could happen, especially if you are low on matter and are fighting over the same planet in different orbits. You are right, there should have been a plan for this. I don't think that the game designers ever saw this one coming and it didn't come up in the playtesting sessions. Now, the difference here is 5 Final Evolution cards basically stalemates that one player and he cannot finish the game until someone else plays enough High or Low Evolution cards. Or must downgrade a Final Evolution card to a Low Evolution card. Who knows, maybe having at least one card that can be played is the balance breaker to prevent this type of thing happening.

In any event. I feel that Acceleration should get faster at some point and the end game would be when you are out of Matter in the Solar System. Maybe a Refresh phase after a stalemate situation persists for x moves. Then during that Refresh phase Matter will be attracted toward the planets no matter where they are, thus ensuring an end game.

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tom-le-termite
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You just summarized my thoughts.
 
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Lev Matiushenko
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Never endiing game is called "draw". Like in chess.
 
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Sir Elrond
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Univanger wrote:
Never endiing game is called "draw". Like in chess.

Never ending game is called "forbidden". Like in Go.
 
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