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Subject: Suffer losses even when not part of a clash? rss

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Justin Chow
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Dark Destruction Dragon of Q
Base Core set
Play: All players clash. Each player that did not win loses 30 RP.

My question pertains to clashing of all players, while having your Tableau all face down.

I play Dark Destruction Dragon of Q, and it says all players clash. 1 player has no valid cards in his Tableau to clash as they are all face-down. Does he still suffer the negative effect from Dark Destruction Dragon of Q?

The card says, "Each player that did not win loses 30 RP.". To me that means that whether you were part of the clash or not, you lose 30 RP for not winning, even though you did not lose either. If the card was worded "The losers of the clash lose 30 RP." I can see the player not being part of the clash being safe from the negative effect.

Any thoughts on this? as I could not find a ruling for "All players Clash" effects and this scenario.

Thanks.
 
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Christian K
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As you say, the wording seems quite clear. 'Each player that did not win' includes players who did not participate according to CCG logic.

Millennium Blades something does not use CCG logic, so I am not 100% sure, but I am fairly convinced that your answer is correct.
 
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(The Artist formerly known as) Arnest R
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There can be several winners, or none at all, in clashes, which explains the wording I think. So, no, if you did not take part in a clash, I don't think you're losing rp.
 
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Justin Chow
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Well we have 2 different answers so far.

Is this scenario there would be only 1 winner (excluding other effects).

What I'm trying to find out is whether the "Each player that did not win loses 30 RP" part effects players that were not able to participate in the "all players clash" since they technically did not win a clash.
 
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Ryan C
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Hmmm... so this one is an issue of wording. As it's written, I'd have to say that means all players, regardless of whether they had a valid top card. The card doesn't say "each player involved in the clash". It just says "each player".

Now, it's very possible "each player involved in the clash" is really what the devs intended with this one. And that the semi-odd wording of "Each player that did not win" is not meant to catch non-participants, but just to catch players who tied. The game does very specifically make tying a different state than winning or losing after all. But until a dev comes and says so, I don't think we can fairly rule a card on what the dev's may have meant, when what the card currently says is clear cut.
 
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Justin Chow
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I'd have to agree with you.

One thing that makes me think it would hit all players regardless of participating is the use of "each player that did not win" instead of something like, "the losers of the clash(...)".

Do devs ever pop in here to check on these things?
 
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Dan Harrow
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Removed to prevent confusion
 
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Justin Chow
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True, but were not sure if that's the intended mechanic. As the rulebook states, "In a multi-player Clash, each player who has a Top Card is able to participate in the Clash." So having no top card means he cannot participate.

The question here is, does he still count as "not winning" if he does not participate.
 
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Dan Harrow
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Trigonomics wrote:
True, but were not sure if that's the intended mechanic. As the rulebook states, "In a multi-player Clash, each player who has a Top Card is able to participate in the Clash." So having no top card means he cannot participate.

The question here is, does he still count as "not winning" if he does not participate.

I looked it up and yes, the Top Card is defined as the right-most face-up card, so if a Clash requires a Top Card for participating, then he's not able to participate. So, if non-participation is a given, then if he didn't participate, then he clearly didn't win.

So, then we are determining whether he is ignored because he didn't participate, which you have properly discerned that we will be unable to answer until Brad or Ithry pops in to clarify. So... we wait!
 
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Justin Chow
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thanks for the reinforcement.

Summoning Brad or Ithry!
 
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The Shader
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Trigonomics wrote:
Dark Destruction Dragon of Q
Base Core set
Play: All players clash. Each player that did not win loses 30 RP.



I think the answer here is obvious.

-All players clash.

Are you not able to clash for whatever reason? Okay, you don't clash.

-Each player that did not win loses 30 RP.

Did you clash and win? Grats you are safe!
Did you clash and not win? You lose 30 RP bc you did not win.
Were you unable to clash? You lose 30 RP bc you did not win.

I think the important phrase here is 'each player that DID NOT WIN', if it had said 'each losing player' it would have been a different outcome...

(alternate example text) Each losing player loses 30 RP.
Did you clash and win? Grats you are safe!
Did you clasn and not win? You lose 30 RP bc you did not win.
Were you unable to clash? nothing happens to you... You did not lose bc you did not compete.
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Justin Chow
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I agree with that logic, and that is the way I saw it.
That is how we ended up playing it out; I just wanted to confirm that this was the intended interaction as the wording was a bit tricky, and the rulebook didn't have information on this kind of scenario.
 
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Alan Castree
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Ignore you had no cards in your tableau or all cards are face down, wouldn't you still clash with a base value of 0? That's how we've been playing it forever.

Edit: NM. The rules say that those that have a TOP card can participate in a clash.

Quote:
If a clash does not have at least two participants (due to not having Top Cards), then the clash does not occur.


It looks to me that only those involved in the clash are affected by the clash.
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Michael Sims
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ACGalaga wrote:
Ignore you had no cards in your tableau or all cards are face down, wouldn't you still clash with a base value of 0? That's how we've been playing it forever.


Glad to hear my group wasn't the only one playing that wrong...
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Kai B
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Interesting what is obious for whom

I never would have considered theat when you did not participate in the Clash you would lose RP.

I would say that ist clear when you dont partisipate, you dont participate, That happens beore anything that is involved in the Clach. So one who is not participating in the clash will not lose 30 RP.
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The Shader
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KRevenger wrote:
Interesting what is obious for whom

I never would have considered theat when you did not participate in the Clash you would lose RP.

I would say that ist clear when you dont partisipate, you dont participate, That happens beore anything that is involved in the Clach. So one who is not participating in the clash will not lose 30 RP.


It says all players that did not win. If you didn't fight you may not have lost, but you sure did not win.

 
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Alan Castree
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therealtheshader wrote:
KRevenger wrote:
Interesting what is obious for whom

I never would have considered theat when you did not participate in the Clash you would lose RP.

I would say that ist clear when you dont partisipate, you dont participate, That happens beore anything that is involved in the Clach. So one who is not participating in the clash will not lose 30 RP.


It says all players that did not win. If you didn't fight you may not have lost, but you sure did not win.



I've never ran in a race, but you're saying I didn't win every race that ever existed because I never participated in any them? I guess so...

This feels like a stretch. The rules say that a clash cannot occur if there is no one to clash. Thus the clash effect doesn't affect players not in the clash. We wouldn't have that rule if it did.

But yeah, most logical resolution is that you don't "not win" a clash if you're not involved in it. However, if you want to play by these crazy rules make sure you declare it before the start of the game.


Edit: Sorry for being kinda jerky about it.

Edit edit: I understand that the wording could be better, but it's much easier to say "clash effects only affect those involved in the clash" rather than to argue about specifics of the wording.

Edit edit edit: I'm a jerk and clearly shouldn't be talking about game rules.
 
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Brad Talton
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This case is a little different. Your logic is understandable--you don't lose a clash you don't participate, but you also do not win it. If you don't play, you cannot possibly win.

Quote:
I've never ran in a race, but you're saying I didn't win every race that ever existed because I never participated in any them? I guess so...

Yes. It's this exactly. You didn't lose, but you also didn't win.

If you are any player who is not the winner of the clash then you lose 30 RP.
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Justin Chow
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Quote:
I've never ran in a race, but you're saying I didn't win every race that ever existed because I never participated in any them? I guess so...

You know that saying, "You miss all the shots you don't take."

Kyokai wrote:
This case is a little different. Your logic is understandable--you don't lose a clash you don't participate, but you also do not win it. If you don't play, you cannot possibly win.

If you are any player who is not the winner of the clash then you lose 30 RP.


Thanks a lot for the clarification, Brad!
 
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Alan Castree
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Trigonomics wrote:
Quote:
I've never ran in a race, but you're saying I didn't win every race that ever existed because I never participated in any them? I guess so...

You know that saying, "You miss all the shots you don't take."

Kyokai wrote:
This case is a little different. Your logic is understandable--you don't lose a clash you don't participate, but you also do not win it. If you don't play, you cannot possibly win.

If you are any player who is not the winner of the clash then you lose 30 RP.


Thanks a lot for the clarification, Brad!


Daaaaaaaaaaam, I've been put in my place. I think I'll stop making rules judgements now.
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Mike Heil
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You can always clash even with no cards in tableau. Your base value is 0. You can't avoid a fight that way.
 
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Ryan C
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LordZon wrote:
You can always clash even with no cards in tableau. Your base value is 0. You can't avoid a fight that way.


That's not true. From the rule books:

Quote:
If clashing with another player, choose a player with a Top Card. In a multi-player Clash, each player who has a Top Card is able to participate in the Clash.


You can't participate in a clash if you don't have a top card.
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Justin Chow
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LordZon wrote:
You can always clash even with no cards in tableau. Your base value is 0. You can't avoid a fight that way.


Sage Of The WIse wrote:
If clashing with another player, choose a player with a Top Card. In a multi-player Clash, each player who has a Top Card is able to participate in the Clash.


Also, as per the rule book, a top card is defined as the right-most, face-up card. so you are safe from a targeted clash if you have no Top card.

 
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