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Subject: Alabama may allow church to form its own police force. rss

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Damian
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SB193 is moving through Alabama's Senate for a vote. It would allow the Briarwood Presbyterian Church, a 4100 member "mega-church", to maintain its own force of sworn officers with full police powers. They argue this is necessary because there is a K-12 school and a seminary on the grounds. There is precedent for private educational institutions to run their own police force, but never religious institutions. I really don't see why a private security force wouldn't be more than adequate.


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damiangerous wrote:
SB193 is moving through Alabama's Senate for a vote. It would allow the Briarwood Presbyterian Church, a 4100 member "mega-church", to maintain its own force of sworn officers with full police powers. They argue this is necessary because there is a K-12 school and a seminary on the grounds. There is precedent for private educational institutions to run their own police force, but never religious institutions. I really don't see why a private security force wouldn't be more than adequate.




There is another fun bill wending its way through the legislature in a similar vein

Quote:
The ACLU of Alabama is urging Waggoner and other lawmakers to vote no to the Briarwood police force — and no to another bill called The Alabama Church Protection Act that would enable to churches to tap gun-toting congregants for security and provide them with legal protections if they shoot anybody.
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How does that work? Full police powers? is that only on their property or in the wider world in general ?
 
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damiangerous wrote:
SB193 is moving through Alabama's Senate for a vote. It would allow the Briarwood Presbyterian Church, a 4100 member "mega-church", to maintain its own force of sworn officers with full police powers. They argue this is necessary because there is a K-12 school and a seminary on the grounds. There is precedent for private educational institutions to run their own police force, but never religious institutions. I really don't see why a private security force wouldn't be more than adequate.




Oh, I don't see anything bad coming from this decision.

Waco II - Briarwood Crispyterians.

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Damian
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growlley wrote:
How does that work? Full police powers? is that only on their property or in the wider world in general ?

Usually a "sworn peace officer" in a state means certain powers within their jurisdiction and lesser powers outside of it. It's a bit vague here because the bill grants them the powers and duties of a law enforcement officer in the state of Alabama, but the later seems to restrict all powers to church properties though. It's something I'm not aware of any precedent for though it looks like they're trying to go for the municipal model.
 
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C Bazler
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What could go wrong?

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growlley wrote:
How does that work? Full police powers? is that only on their property or in the wider world in general ?


Full police/investigative powers? Like if say there was a sex scandal or the like on the grounds. Imagine the Catholic Church investigating its own scandals with full police powers and then ponder if this is a good idea
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damiangerous wrote:
SB193 is moving through Alabama's Senate for a vote. It would allow the Briarwood Presbyterian Church, a 4100 member "mega-church", to maintain its own force of sworn officers with full police powers. They argue this is necessary because there is a K-12 school and a seminary on the grounds. There is precedent for private educational institutions to run their own police force, but never religious institutions. I really don't see why a private security force wouldn't be more than adequate.

Not religious institutions, but I'm pretty sure the Disney World complex is its own city with its own police force. Disneyland isn't quite so independent, but I think they have some police powers.

South of me, they not only have police but military powers. I refer of course to the Church of Semper Fidelis.
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Kumitedad wrote:
Full police/investigative powers? Like if say there was a sex scandal or the like on the grounds. Imagine the Catholic Church investigating its own scandals with full police powers and then ponder if this is a good idea
Maybe they meant they wanted to protect the K-12 school from the Seminary.
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Seriously though, this is dumb.

(1) Laws passed to benefit one particular person or organization are almost always a bad idea.

This bill would authorize Briarwood Presbyterian Church, organized as
a nonprofit church under Alabama's nonprofit corporation law, to employ police officers under certain conditions. A BILL TO BE ENTITLED AN ACT To authorize Briarwood Presbyterian Church, organized as a nonprofit church under Alabama's nonprofit corporation law, to employ police officers under certain conditions.

(2) Then add an additional bad layer where you are just investing one religious organization with state police powers. I don't see how you avoid the Establishment of Religion problem. It's not based on anything neutral at all. It just benefits this one particular organization.

(3) Even if you made it neutral, it's completely unnecessary. The church is going to be paying for it. So then, go hire a private security force, folks. You don't need your own special police force.

(4) Even if you made it neutral (e.g., size, a school involved, etc.), let's play the tape to the end. Let's open that Pandora's Box and look inside! What do we have here, Alabama? Oh lookie. Muslims now want to have their own police force. Oh wait, you say you didn't want that? That's why you did (1)? Yeah, well, that's why you have a problem under (2).

(5) Miscellanous headaches - Who knows what kind of weird complications are going to occur in terms of labor rights, liability to the state, training certifications, etc.
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Chris Binkowski
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cbazler wrote:
What could go wrong?

[IMG]


Nah, should be more like:

 
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TheChin! wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Full police/investigative powers? Like if say there was a sex scandal or the like on the grounds. Imagine the Catholic Church investigating its own scandals with full police powers and then ponder if this is a good idea
Maybe they meant they wanted to protect the K-12 school from the Seminary.


Now imagine the outrage from the usual suspects if I'D have made that comment :-)
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growlley wrote:
Now imagine the outrage from the usual suspects if I'D have made that comment :-)
I did feel, as I wrote it, that I was wading into the deeper part of the swamp.
 
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I'm also surprised but not shocked that a conservative would propose this. It's textbook cronyism.
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Chris Binkowski
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Sue_G wrote:
I'm also surprised but not shocked that a conservative would propose this. It's textbook cronyism.



Pssst....

your bigotry is showing.
 
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Sarxis wrote:
Sue_G wrote:
I'm also surprised but not shocked that a conservative would propose this. It's textbook cronyism.



Pssst....

your bigotry is showing.


What bigotry? Cronyism is something that the GOP has traditionally disapproved of publicly. It's big government at its worst. This part of my comments has nothing to do with this being a church. A senator in Alabama proposed a law to benefit one particular organization (just one). Those kinds of laws are almost certainly the result of a friend doing a favor for another friend (or at least it's going to look that way to an outsider). It's hard to argue it's based on public policy concerns when it's just a single organization benefiting from it.

I'd have just as much of an issue with a PA senator passing a law that said that one non-profit women's clinic in PA needs its own police force because of threats they were getting from anti-abortion advocates.

You shouldn't pass laws to single out certain organizations to give them special privileges that other similarly positioned organizations do not receive.

It's textbook cronyism.
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Chris Binkowski
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From the article: "Alabama law "provides for the employment of one or more persons to act as police officers at colleges and other private educational institutions," Moore wrote."

So all the church wants is the same provision that other, non-religious institutions are allowed to have. And that is cronyism to you?

Well how about a middle ground then - the local police force assigns full-time officers to the protection of the church while the church pays for the extra officers. Would that be a fair compromise?

Quote:
I'd have just as much of an issue with a PA senator passing a law that said that one non-profit women's clinic in PA needs its own police force because of threats they were getting from anti-abortion advocates.


Convenient.





 
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Sarxis wrote:
From the article: "Alabama law "provides for the employment of one or more persons to act as police officers at colleges and other private educational institutions," Moore wrote."

So all the church wants is the same provision that other, non-religious institutions are allowed to have. And that is cronyism to you?

Well how about a middle ground then - the local police force assigns full-time officers to the protection of the church while the church pays for the extra officers. Would that be a fair compromise?




Okay, so I take from this snark that your "bigotry is showing" comment had nothing to do with me labeling this as cronyism, but was merely you saying that I'm a bigot if I don't support this law. I'm glad we got that all cleared up.

By the way, it was worse than cronyism: "The bill was introduced by Republican Rep. Arnold Mooney, whose wife and daughter work at Briarwood Christian School. All three of his children graduated from Briarwood school." So a government official is passing a bill to help himself and his kids. Is that an appropriate way to run government? Not according to most libertarians. (I know. You're not one of those.)

Moore's statement is talking about existing law that applies to ALL non-religious colleges. The law is for a special dispensation for a SINGLE religious institution that the bill's sponsor's children happen to go to.

Edit: No, that wouldn't be a fair compromise. The Church right now uses police officers that are off duty for their events but there are not enough. The solution is either that the public police force hires more officers so that there are enough to cover the events when off duty and when paid for by the Church, or more likely, that the Church goes out and hires private security guards since they are going to have to pay for the police force under the new law. The solution isn't the government paying for police officers for the church. And it certainly isn't giving police powers to the Church.

Sarxis, what's your feeling about a mosque having their own police force?
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Eric Tama
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Sarxis wrote:

Nah, should be more like:



What do you admire about the crusaders? Was it the wanton slaughter of Jews, Muslims, Christian heretics and Catholics? Or are you just repeating another alt-right (white supremacist) meme?
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Eric_Tama wrote:
Sarxis wrote:

Nah, should be more like:



What do you admire about the crusaders? Was it the wanton slaughter of Jews, Muslims, Christian heretics and Catholics? Or are you just repeating another alt-right (white supremacist) meme?


I do have to admit that image is Metal as fuck
 
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Mike Stiles
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Can some classisist help me?

Full Plate + On Foot + Crossbow seems like a REALLY strange combination to me.
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windsagio wrote:
Can some classisist help me?

Full Plate + On Foot + Crossbow seems like a REALLY strange combination to me.


This is Crusader or KT fetish. It gives me a chuckle whenever I see these depictions.

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Eric_Tama wrote:
What do you admire about the crusaders? Was it the wanton slaughter of Jews, Muslims, Christian heretics and Catholics? Or are you just repeating another alt-right (white supremacist) meme?
Isn't this exactly what WH40K was initially satirizing before it started taking itself seriously?
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TheChin! wrote:
Eric_Tama wrote:
What do you admire about the crusaders? Was it the wanton slaughter of Jews, Muslims, Christian heretics and Catholics? Or are you just repeating another alt-right (white supremacist) meme?
Isn't this exactly what WH40K was initially satirizing before it started taking itself seriously?


I did not know that.

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