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Subject: Chinese, Japanese . . . it's all the same, right? rss

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Ryan Lopez DeVinaspre
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I'm sorry if I sound like a snob or a jerk or whatever, but surely I'm not the only one bummed to see the expansion is supposed to be Chinese, even though all the gods, etc. still have Japanese names, right? Why bother making them Chinese? I don't mind that they are, but if so, take a few minutes and look up the Chinese names of some gods. I happen to be interested in the kami they included, but then make the factions Japanese and call it a day. They are already named after non-animals (sun and moon), so do they need to be arbitrarily called "Chinese"?

Sorry if this seems petty. It probably is, but I'm already kind of off-put by the art style (which was only loosely Japanese-looking until Susano-o and some of the more recent reveals), so to now just start mixing-and-matching cultures feels . . . I don't know, lazy?

I'm still in on the game, and the expansion factions actually look like a lot of fun (if rather pricey), but it just feels like the game is trying to make me not want it.

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Daniel Legault
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Well seeing as Moon is clearly Chinese influenced and the Sun is clearly Korean influenced you are kind of guilty of that too. It is called Dynasty Invasion which is to say Japan is being invaded by the Dynasties. The monsters are more over, like the rest of the game tied to Japan.

I'm not defending it, but just pointing out that it's a thing. I too am not the biggest fan of it and find it odd to do this representation. I do wish they were sticking with one culture, but China, Japan and Korea does have a long history of conflict and cultural intermingling. Other people in the threads from Korea and China have mentioned they dislike the Japanese theme because to them they have been raised to in some degree dislike Japan, this is in some ways perhaps a minor concession to those that raised issue with it.

The sun and moon clan choices is weird, but all of the clan choices have been super weird so far. They are not really reflected all all by the minis in the base or this expansion. I guess the rising Sun in rising Sun is Korea occupying Japan. Nice seeing Korea get some props.
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Becq
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China? Korea? No, the flavor text clearly says that they sailed "across an ocean from another land". Ocean, not sea, as in Sea of Japan or East China Sea. So obviously the newcomers are native Americans... (Or maybe aboriginal Australians?) ((Or maybe native Hawaiians?!))


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Scott Moore
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TheCrazyPiper wrote:
I'm sorry if I sound like a snob or a jerk or whatever, but surely I'm not the only one bummed to see the expansion is supposed to be Chinese, even though all the gods, etc. still have Japanese names, right? Why bother making them Chinese? I don't mind that they are, but if so, take a few minutes and look up the Chinese names of some gods. I happen to be interested in the kami they included, but then make the factions Japanese and call it a day. They are already named after non-animals (sun and moon), so do they need to be arbitrarily called "Chinese"?

Sorry if this seems petty. It probably is, but I'm already kind of off-put by the art style (which was only loosely Japanese-looking until Susano-o and some of the more recent reveals), so to now just start mixing-and-matching cultures feels . . . I don't know, lazy?

I'm still in on the game, and the expansion factions actually look like a lot of fun (if rather pricey), but it just feels like the game is trying to make me not want it.



No need to apologize for having knowledge.
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janos_hunyadi wrote:
TheCrazyPiper wrote:
I'm sorry if I sound like a snob or a jerk or whatever, but surely I'm not the only one bummed to see the expansion is supposed to be Chinese, even though all the gods, etc. still have Japanese names, right? Why bother making them Chinese? I don't mind that they are, but if so, take a few minutes and look up the Chinese names of some gods. I happen to be interested in the kami they included, but then make the factions Japanese and call it a day. They are already named after non-animals (sun and moon), so do they need to be arbitrarily called "Chinese"?

Sorry if this seems petty. It probably is, but I'm already kind of off-put by the art style (which was only loosely Japanese-looking until Susano-o and some of the more recent reveals), so to now just start mixing-and-matching cultures feels . . . I don't know, lazy?

I'm still in on the game, and the expansion factions actually look like a lot of fun (if rather pricey), but it just feels like the game is trying to make me not want it.



No need to apologize for having knowledge.


6 of the 7 gods of luck were brought over from China and India and as they were adopted into Japanese culture they were given Japanese names along side their original names.

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Jon Snow
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goo "Ni Hao" indeed!

I traveled to the Land of Wikipedia before coming here:

The Seven Lucky Gods were Japanese, but originally were...

Ebizu: Japanese, the grandfather of the first mortal Emperor

Fukomokuju, Hotei, Jurojin: Chinese

Benten, Bishamon, Daikokuten: Indian/Nepalese

Personally, I think these "God Monsters" are a nice positive bunch, compared to the blood dripping Oni!

I'm in!


I don't see any ownership rings. Guess since these clans are swopped in, you just use the clan's rings that you are replacing.

***

By the way, if you are interested in other new Asian board games which are still hard to find, but will be easier soon, my newest purchases are:

Far East War 1592: The Japanese invasion of Korea (then allied to Ming China). Made in Taiwan.

Three Kingdoms Redux: During the 'Chinese Iliad' Romance of the Three Kingdoms period of 200 CE, the Chinese state of Wei records for the first time (that we know about) receiving the first emissary to China from a Japanese state; from Queen Himiko of Yamatai (whoever she was and wherever it was). Made in Singapore.

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Phil Schmidt
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It could be that the two new clans are still 'Japanese' despite being invaders.

Just because they came from afar doesn't mean they just landed. The new clans could arrived generations ago, have a substantially integrated culture, but still be considered outsiders because enough of the original distinctions remain.

I mean, even today a 4th generation American could be told to 'go back to' wherever just because they look like a foreigner.
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Ryan Lopez DeVinaspre
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Taluagel wrote:
Well seeing as Moon is clearly Chinese influenced and the Sun is clearly Korean influenced you are kind of guilty of that too. It is called Dynasty Invasion which is to say Japan is being invaded by the Dynasties. The monsters are more over, like the rest of the game tied to Japan.

I'm not defending it, but just pointing out that it's a thing. I too am not the biggest fan of it and find it odd to do this representation. I do wish they were sticking with one culture, but China, Japan and Korea does have a long history of conflict and cultural intermingling. Other people in the threads from Korea and China have mentioned they dislike the Japanese theme because to them they have been raised to in some degree dislike Japan, this is in some ways perhaps a minor concession to those that raised issue with it.

The sun and moon clan choices is weird, but all of the clan choices have been super weird so far. They are not really reflected all all by the minis in the base or this expansion. I guess the rising Sun in rising Sun is Korea occupying Japan. Nice seeing Korea get some props.


Fair enough, and good point about Korea. In my defense (sort of), that was less of me making the same mistake and more of me not actually looking at all of the minis before posting (a separate sin altogether). I saw the "Ni hao" and the first minis and jumped to conclusions. Had I looked, I would have seen the Korean influence. My bad. Still, it seems an odd thing to keep the gods' names the same, though maybe (slightly) less so now that I realize the factions come from China and Korea.
 
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Ryan Lopez DeVinaspre
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skies wrote:
It could be that the two new clans are still 'Japanese' despite being invaders.

Just because they came from afar doesn't mean they just landed. The new clans could arrived generations ago, have a substantially integrated culture, but still be considered outsiders because enough of the original distinctions remain.

I mean, even today a 4th generation American could be told to 'go back to' wherever just because they look like a foreigner.


Well, the "Ni hao" in the update (in place of the "konnichi wa" they had been using) implies that these are not intended to be Japanese.

As others have already noted, many Japanese gods (that weren't Shinto kami, anyway) were brought from other parts of Asia (typically China/India). If they don't have a non-Japanese analog, they could have just found another god too. But it doesn't matter. It's a game, and I probably just need to let it go.
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Jeff M
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Taluagel wrote:
...this is in some ways perhaps a minor concession to those that raised issue with it.


I doubt it. I don't think CMON would have rushed to develop 2 new factions with their own set of rules and minis to integrate into the game over the period of a week or so.
As with all the other "expansion goals" and "add ons", these have been well thought out and planned as part of the campaign. They are just being introduced now.
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Max Maloney
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I appreciate the sentiment of the OP, but I think it's not an issue in this case. The Japanese names given are what these foreigners are called by the natives of Japan. This commonly happens in real life, so it seems thematic to me.
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Dormammu wrote:
I appreciate the sentiment of the OP, but I think it's not an issue in this case. The Japanese names given are what these foreigners are called by the natives of Japan. This commonly happens in real life, so it seems thematic to me.

I can live with that.
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Think of it like this. The game takes place in Japan, so just imagine that those gods are called by their japanese name because that is what the people of japan would do.

People would use their own terminology when talking about the gods of their enemy instead of trying to be culturally inclusive and use the Chinese names.

This might be a cop out, but it is a good enough lore reason to explain it away if it really is a bother.
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Michael W

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It was a little off putting to me as well. I'm not going to be including this expansion in my games but for a different reason: it just makes the game more complex. As the guy who gets the burden of explaining the rules I want to say "you can't do that because of 'x'" as little as possible. Having two special clans that have special rules is just the kind of tedium I try to avoid.
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DinoCrackers wrote:
It was a little off putting to me as well. I'm not going to be including this expansion in my games but for a different reason: it just makes the game more complex. As the guy who gets the burden of explaining the rules I want to say "you can't do that because of 'x'" as little as possible. Having two special clans that have special rules is just the kind of tedium I try to avoid.


Since expansions are basically for replayability, wouldn't most of the group already know the game by the time the variety afforded by these clans and the new rules they require were introduced?
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I dont agree.

A friend and I were having a discussion on the new factions. The moon sculpts look like something out of the Han Dynasty, part of the Three Kindoms lore. If Sun reflects maybe the southern Quaan ( ? ) family, maybe they will released one more faction to represent Wei and an expansion board for some Romance of the Three Kindoms action!

We can only dream right?

( its been a long time since. Played Romance so I may have butchered the family names and history if it all )


Taluagel wrote:
Well seeing as Moon is clearly Chinese influenced and the Sun is clearly Korean influenced you are kind of guilty of that too. It is called Dynasty Invasion which is to say Japan is being invaded by the Dynasties. The monsters are more over, like the rest of the game tied to Japan.

I'm not defending it, but just pointing out that it's a thing. I too am not the biggest fan of it and find it odd to do this representation. I do wish they were sticking with one culture, but China, Japan and Korea does have a long history of conflict and cultural intermingling. Other people in the threads from Korea and China have mentioned they dislike the Japanese theme because to them they have been raised to in some degree dislike Japan, this is in some ways perhaps a minor concession to those that raised issue with it.

The sun and moon clan choices is weird, but all of the clan choices have been super weird so far. They are not really reflected all all by the minis in the base or this expansion. I guess the rising Sun in rising Sun is Korea occupying Japan. Nice seeing Korea get some props.
 
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Kris Verbeeck
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I don"t think the expansion will make the game more difficult to play. At most it will add a couple of minutes in setup,explaining and cleaning up.
The example given was pretty straightforward.

The thing I wonder about is how will the expansion shifts the balance.
If this was Mr lang's first gsme I would have been really worried about it. If the new clans effects or Gods would hurt certain clans more there would be a big issue.

However since the game is self correcting by the actions of the players , I am happy to accept variety as the term.
And I think that is good to have in this type of game if you play this regularly.
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TheCrazyPiper wrote:
I'm sorry if I sound like a snob or a jerk or whatever, ...

You're not sorry.
Stop lying.
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Cant say I really mind its all greek to me. Greco roman that is
 
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Jon Snow
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meeple Here in Brooklyn, we'll probably play at first without Dynasty Invasion, and add it in later. When we play Blood Rage, we usually use Mystics and The Gods, unless playing with newbies.

In fact, since Mr. Lang has said recently that he's working on both his third myth game in the series and going back to Blood Rage, I hope he 'unbinds' the gods there too...
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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chas59 wrote:
Here in Brooklyn, we'll probably play at first without Dynasty Invasion, and add it in later. When we play Blood Rage, we usually use Mystics and The Gods, unless playing with newbies.

We play BR without Gods .. most of us don't really like that expansion.

I think we will play RS with all clans (as the female players will want to play Sun and Koi). I thijnk I will leave the extra gods & rules out though and will play the Sun clan as a regular clan that can recruit monsters.
 
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Thaddeus,

I'm glad to see you here, since I've enjoyed your Blood Rage posts this last year! I usually start out with a game playing as the designer intended. But to each their own.
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Ryan Lopez DeVinaspre
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WrigleyScott wrote:
TheCrazyPiper wrote:
I'm sorry if I sound like a snob or a jerk or whatever, ...

You're not sorry.
Stop lying.


While I certainly understand the cynicism motivating this feeling, I don't appreciate the accusation or the tone.

As it happens, I AM sorry if my post makes me sound snobbish. I find people quick to jump on others here sometimes (you kind of illustrated that point), and I was trying to acknowledge that some may disagree with me and show up front that I understand that.

Furthermore, you know literally nothing about me, so you don't know that I have some background in Japanese Studies, nor do you know that I am genuinely concerned about being "that guy" who pulls on his uniquely specific knowledge to criticize something in entertainment and be a general "downer" for others--I'm a big fan of the "Shhh. Let people enjoy things" meme. My opening qualifying statement was an acknowledgement that I risk being that guy, but felt compelled to speak anyway.

Again, I know people overuse statements like that and use them as shields for their obnoxious behavior--so much so that the statements themselves have become another obnoxious behavior. I get that cynicism, but rather than just firing a crass accusation, either move along, or engage in conversation. Despite the rash of nastiness I see on BGG sometimes, there are also a lot of kind, reasonable people here, and I try to be one of them. I don't dare apologize for irritating you at this point, but I hope you'll consider that possibility in the future.
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What a clickbaity title. I'd agree with you that you sound petty. It's a game dude.

I see you are deeply cut by the reveal of the Seven Lucky Gods. You should cancel you pledge and star the project and come back later and see if the project is still enticing.
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Ryan, I don't agree with you exactly; I think that it's valid and imaginative to include Japanese understandings of other cultures' deities (as Max said above). This is not only an occasional feature of cultures' cosmologies, it's a feature. We could name numerous examples. They aren't caricatured after all in the art, just understood from a Japanese worldview at that time.

I am posting, though, however provocative the title of the thread might be, to praise you for being reflective about the discussion and mitigating your perspective as others have shared their perspectives. I don't think folks who are being dismissive to you have read all that you had to say.

Edit: grammar
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