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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » Rules

Subject: Preventing overpopulation rss

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Daryl Falco
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From the rules (emphasis mine): "You can prevent adding any number of Goblin discs to any Tribe by spending 1 Rage per Tribe you affect."

So can I add some Goblin discs to a Tribe and then spend 1 rage to stop adding more? For example, suppose Fangs are currently at 3 population, War cards says to add 2 to Fangs. Can I add 1 population to Fangs and then spend 1 Rage to not add more discs and thus not overpopulate?

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Ethan Furman
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Yes.

And it's per tribe, not per disk -- so if your tribe was already at 3 and you were supposed to add 3 more, it still only costs 1 rage to prevent overpopulation.
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Jon Geruntho
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Good to know... totally missed this on the first play with them.
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Todd Carter
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jjg101 wrote:
Good to know... totally missed this on the first play with them.


I missed this rule too. And I think I've played the game 10 times. Wow. This helps them a lot.
 
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Kyle
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Big D wrote:
From the rules (emphasis mine): "You can prevent adding any number of Goblin discs to any Tribe by spending 1 Rage per Tribe you affect."

So can I add some Goblin discs to a Tribe and then spend 1 rage to stop adding more? For example, suppose Fangs are currently at 3 population, War cards says to add 2 to Fangs. Can I add 1 population to Fangs and then spend 1 Rage to not add more discs and thus not overpopulate?
The intention is that it's all or nothing when you spend the Rage.

It refers to "any number" because, as Ethan said, it only costs 1 Rage per Tribe no matter how many discs you're actually blocking.
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Ethan Furman
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Woelf wrote:
It refers to "any number" because, as Ethan said, it only costs 1 Rage per Tribe no matter how many discs you're actually blocking.


So if the Bone Tribe is at 2, would get 3, spends a rage to not overpopulate, then the Bone Tribe is still at 2?
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Kyle
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stoneleaf wrote:
Woelf wrote:
It refers to "any number" because, as Ethan said, it only costs 1 Rage per Tribe no matter how many discs you're actually blocking.


So if the Bone Tribe is at 2, would get 3, spends a rage to not overpopulate, then the Bone Tribe is still at 2?
Correct.

If you needed them at 4 that turn, you'll have to let them overpopulate and then force one of your other Tribes on the map to scatter for them.
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David Fenton
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Woelf wrote:
Big D wrote:
From the rules (emphasis mine): "You can prevent adding any number of Goblin discs to any Tribe by spending 1 Rage per Tribe you affect."

So can I add some Goblin discs to a Tribe and then spend 1 rage to stop adding more? For example, suppose Fangs are currently at 3 population, War cards says to add 2 to Fangs. Can I add 1 population to Fangs and then spend 1 Rage to not add more discs and thus not overpopulate?
The intention is that it's all or nothing when you spend the Rage.

It refers to "any number" because, as Ethan said, it only costs 1 Rage per Tribe no matter how many discs you're actually blocking.


Is this a new interpretation? Earlier posts by Patrick and yourself have only mentioned using rage to avoid overpopulating, not avoid the total addition of the tokens (which if could seemingly be used even when no tribes overpopulate):

From here (emphasis mine):
GreenM wrote:
Why are all of my tribes stuck off board scattering over and over?
When there is overpopulation it is an event for all of the Tribes. No matter how much you overpopulate all Tribes are capped at 4 population and only one Tribe needs to scatter. A Tribe that scatters still has an action and can return to the board. You can also spend rage to avoid overpopulating one per tribe.

From here (emphasis mine):
Woelf wrote:
You can prevent adding any number of Goblin
discs to any Tribe by spending 1 Rage per
Tribe you affect.

It intentionally refers to preventing overpopulation rather than preventing scattering, because if multiple tribes would overpopulate at the same time, you'd need to spend a rage for each to avoid the effect entirely.


Further, the rules say "can prevent adding any number of Goblin discs", not "can prevent adding all Goblin discs to any Tribe". The words "any number" (vs "all") imply that there is more than 1 option. If "all" was intended, the "any number" could have been left out: "You can prevent adding Goblin discs to any Tribe"

If it's truly meant to be "all", then you need to add this to an errata or official FAQ, since that is not the interpretation most people have gotten.
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Kyle
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dsdhornet wrote:
Woelf wrote:
Big D wrote:
From the rules (emphasis mine): "You can prevent adding any number of Goblin discs to any Tribe by spending 1 Rage per Tribe you affect."

So can I add some Goblin discs to a Tribe and then spend 1 rage to stop adding more? For example, suppose Fangs are currently at 3 population, War cards says to add 2 to Fangs. Can I add 1 population to Fangs and then spend 1 Rage to not add more discs and thus not overpopulate?
The intention is that it's all or nothing when you spend the Rage.

It refers to "any number" because, as Ethan said, it only costs 1 Rage per Tribe no matter how many discs you're actually blocking.


Is this a new interpretation? Earlier posts by Patrick and yourself have only mentioned using rage to avoid overpopulating, not avoid the total addition of the tokens (which if could seemingly be used even when no tribes overpopulate):
We haven't been as crystal clear on that in the past as we should have been, but this is the intended way to handle it.

Spending the Rage does prevent overpopulating, but it does it by preventing the discs from being placed, rather than by ignoring the effect (which is what the Leader card does).


Quote:
If it's truly meant to be "all", then you need to add this to an errata or official FAQ, since that is not the interpretation most people have gotten.
The official FAQ got pushed to the back burner while the addons and promos are being worked on, but this will definitely be included.
 
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Geoffrey Heffernan
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stoneleaf wrote:
Yes.

And it's per tribe, not per disk -- so if your tribe was already at 3 and you were supposed to add 3 more, it still only costs 1 rage to prevent overpopulation.


Wow really!

Damm I missed that too lol. Bumped for goblin justice!

That would have made a huge difference!
 
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endofturn
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I've been playing wrong too, I was spending 1 rage if 1 tribe was overpopulating. But if a tribe was at 2 and I was adding 3 I'd prevent any number by preventing from placing 1 disk. I wouldn't just leave them at 2 and not place any tokens.

I don't know where I got that interpretation from but now I know.
 
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Patrick Leder
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I want to know how Goblins were losing in that situation.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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EntropyGuardian wrote:
But if a tribe was at 2 and I was adding 3 I'd prevent any number by preventing from placing 1 disk. I wouldn't just leave them at 2 and not place any tokens.

I've been playing that way too. That's how the rules are written.
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Leigh Ryan
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Same here. Top the tribe's population up, sure, and spend a rage if it would have gone over.

This 'new' way is quite the revelation. And just as I thought we'd managed to get all the rules down.
 
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Karl
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GreenM wrote:
I want to know how Goblins were losing in that situation.


I think we need the secret technique to master the greenskins from you ;-)
Have been playing it wrong as well and Goblins still came in dead last.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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IIRC, the new rules say you can move and do special action in the same turn now. That should be a big help.
 
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endofturn
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kilrah wrote:
GreenM wrote:
I want to know how Goblins were losing in that situation.


I think we need the secret technique to master the greenskins from you ;-)
Have been playing it wrong as well and Goblins still came in dead last.


Well, the first game I played goblins with that rule I won with time to spare so...
 
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Doug Moore
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sorry I am not getting it. most of your descriptions and hard to understand exactly what you are saying.

before
each tribe has 3 disks
war card - add 3 disks to each tribe

answer 1 (this is how we played)
spend 3 rage
final tribe population = 4 each

answer 2
spend 3 rage
final tribe population = 3 each (no changes)
 
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Jonathan Chaffer
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Answer 2 is apparently the designer intent, although most (including me) read the rules as Answer 1.
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Scott Russell
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JonBob wrote:
Answer 2 is apparently the designer intent, although most (including me) read the rules as Answer 1.


I thought you taught Method 2 to me last fall. laugh
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Jonathan Chaffer
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Perhaps. I "teach" Vast in a different way than any other game I know well enough to take on that role: I ask players to accept that there will be mistakes in the first game, and just to play the first one for the experience. There is just too much here to be able to meticulously go through everything beforehand. So I probably didn't mention it until it came up, and probably quoted the rules on that subject, and you probably interpreted it after the designer's intent rather than mine.

Vast being an experiential game, I don't think I care one way or the other as long as it's consistent, but I'll be sure to be correct going forward.
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D a n _ C
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The way that I had to internalize the rule for myself was this: If you spend one Rage on a Tribe that would overpopulate, then it is as if the War card reads zero for that Tribe instead.
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David Fenton
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I think the confusion came from the precise wording.

It's ambiguous as written because it could be read "[prevent adding] / [any number of discs]" (meaning you could "prevent adding" 1 or 2 or 3 or any number) or "prevent / [adding any number of discs]" (meaning that you cannot "add 1 or 2 or any number discs").

I think many saw it the first way because you can never "add any number of discs" (it must always be the number specified on the War card). Since it can't happen then preventing it doesn't make sense, so it the statement must have meant the other one.
 
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endofturn
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dsdhornet wrote:
I think the confusion came from the precise wording.

It's ambiguous as written because it could be read "[prevent adding] / [any number of discs]" (meaning you could "prevent adding" 1 or 2 or 3 or any number) or "prevent / [adding any number of discs]" (meaning that you cannot "add 1 or 2 or any number discs").

I think many saw it the first way because you can never "add any number of discs" (it must always be the number specified on the War card). Since it can't happen then preventing it doesn't make sense, so it the statement must have meant the other one.


Prevent adding any number of discs

Prevent adding any number of discs
 
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Raithyn
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EntropyGuardian wrote:
dsdhornet wrote:
I think the confusion came from the precise wording.

It's ambiguous as written because it could be read "[prevent adding] / [any number of discs]" (meaning you could "prevent adding" 1 or 2 or 3 or any number) or "prevent / [adding any number of discs]" (meaning that you cannot "add 1 or 2 or any number discs").

I think many saw it the first way because you can never "add any number of discs" (it must always be the number specified on the War card). Since it can't happen then preventing it doesn't make sense, so it the statement must have meant the other one.


Prevent adding any number of discs

Prevent adding any number of discs

Including the word "number" doesn't make the statement ambiguous, it makes it mean something else. As someone who does quite a bit of technical English editing*, I'll stand by that to the bitter end.

*I know, my posts from my phone don't reflect that,
 
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