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Triumph & Tragedy» Forums » Rules

Subject: questions about population and the US rss

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George Yourgos Yirgis
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Hi everyone

I hope you can help us with some questions. First, what role does population play other than forts for neutral powers? Why do we track it? Second, is it possible for the US to bring US units into the game earlier than the year tracker shows?

Thank you for the help!
 
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jon carter
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Production is the LEAST of industrial capacity (number of factories), resources (once at war) and population. So building factories beyond your home, captured and influenced population is pointless.

You can build US units using Western production capacity prior to the year turn indicated, as long as it is a satellite (3 influence gained). But the "free" units that arrive starting in 1942 cannot be accelerated.
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For example, if one of the Rivals has 10 Population, 6 Resource, and 12 Industry, the Production value is:

- If at war, the least of the three = 6 in this case.

- If at peace, Resource is not counted, and the limiting value is the Population = 10.

As Jon points out, having 12 Industry in this case doesn't help your production if your Resource and Population is less than 12. The extra factories sit idle.
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George Yourgos Yirgis
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Thank you for the replies!
 
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Highlander
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My T&T player group came up to another question related to US-area production capabilities.

Assuming that:
- US already joined Allies,
- Allies are in war with Axis,
- Great Britain is completely blockaded by Axis (so London production due to blocked resources dropped down to 2),

...is it a fair home rule that Allied player may still produce/build up US units in Washington/New York, using the resources and population available on America continent (such production would be worth 3 points)?
I know that standard rules say "Allied industry is solely in London and every POP and RES must be tracked to London, not to Washington or Paris", but maybe some of you tried such home rule, to make the gameplay more historical.
 
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George Christodoulou
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American pop and res represent the Lend Lease to UK. These points when blocked by subs or fleets are not merelyt considered as "unable to ship" but sunk and lost. It is stated in the rulebook that these amounts are in excess of the US local production. Don't forget that the US "auto-produces" 4pts in 1942, 8 in 1943 and 12 in 1943.
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Highlander
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Nakraal wrote:
American pop and res represent the Lend Lease to UK. These points when blocked by subs or fleets are not merelyt considered as "unable to ship" but sunk and lost. It is stated in the rulebook that these amounts are in excess of the US local production. Don't forget that the US "auto-produces" 4pts in 1942, 8 in 1943 and 12 in 1943.


This would be a good reasoning if US areas would be off-map areas (meaning that are impossible to be land invaded) and just provide some production & bonus units like Lend Lease.

But current rules allow Axis to try invasion on America's continent via Atlantic Ocean (which is a completely unreal situation). Also in case of total Axis blockade made near the US coastline it would be reasonable that Home (not "Lend Lease") US Navy & Airforce would support Royal Navy in engaging Axis fleet.

The auto-production in 1942-44 showing the "US detachment" from European war theatre in our games usually comes too late, and London is starved much earlier (assume there is a war between Axis and Allies started around 1937-1940 and US is already London's satellite so also in war with Axis, but not contributing at all due to blokade). Even if Allies survive until 1942, how a free 1 step Airforce and 1 step Fleet in 1942 can really help Allies to counter the blockade of London?

From my perspective it is another interesting home rule to be tested: no land invasions directly from Ocean areas are allowed. So both Americas cannot be invaded at all. Dakar and Delhi cannot be invaded from the Ocean areas, but still can be invaded from adjacent land areas (Morocco, Karachi, Bombay).



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George Christodoulou
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The involvement of USA in game is not restricted to the Lend Lease, so why have it off map?

I have yet to see a successful US invasion by Axis. For it to be successful the West player must make awful play and the Axis an optimal one. Even then I can't see the invasion having more than *some* chances to be victorious.

I don't see the US unit production as comming too late, but I guess that depends on how games play out. In most of mine, where an Axis-West war broke out, the US units were essential.
 
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Highlander
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Nakraal wrote:
The involvement of USA in game is not restricted to the Lend Lease, so why have it off map?

I have yet to see a successful US invasion by Axis. For it to be successful the West player must make awful play and the Axis an optimal one. Even then I can't see the invasion having more than *some* chances to be victorious.

I don't see the US unit production as comming too late, but I guess that depends on how games play out. In most of mine, where an Axis-West war broke out, the US units were essential.


This game has almost unlimited number of game flows I just share my experience after 20+ plays. I have seen a successful Axis invasion on USA. Seems not a tough task, especially if USA is already Allied Satellite, it will not automatically deploy its forces during invasion (8.46). The only defence would be 2 CV Fortess in New York, and then 4 CV Fortress in Washington - much weaker defence comparing to London. Axis are capable to make a classic Infantry attack on Paris, and then they can form a Convoy in 1939 (2 x 4 CV Infantry + 4 x 4 CV Fleet), in one strategic move from Paris they reach North Atlantic Ocean (unreachable for British air) and attack NY in the next season using 16 x G1. In the autumn season final attack from NY into Washingon. In theory Axis can also set an Air Base on Azores Islands to generate more G1 impact. 3 weak Submarines may occupy the Great Britain seas, to screen the invading forces.

 
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George Christodoulou
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I don't want to come off like a smartass, I have less games under my belt (a dozen) but imho what you report comes into the optimal vs severely suboptimal play.

To manage to capture Paris during 1938 and still have this invasion force (of 18 production points 6x4 full 4step units) means either that:

a) Axis overspend for army build ups since 1936, In the levels of minimum 10 per year, something that should alarm both West and USSR to build up on their own and even cooperate. In our games each monitors the military and action cards bought by each other.

During the 30s building more than 3 as the West, 5 as USSR and 7 as Axis is a strong indication of that someone is gearing up for an early war.

or

b) the Axis goes all in to capture USA and is severely severely undermanned in the Mainland. By the time he strat moves to Atlantic ocean UK can place any block in Irish Sea and Bay of Biscany, to cut off the Axis Doomstack a snap Sea Lion or option to come back to Paris in 1 season, and then attempt a weak Overlord. Losing Paris would hold the Mil victory for Axis and put him in a very bad situation.

Spring
UK plays first (ideal for Axis in this case), sit idle or moves around in Med
Axis moves doomstack in Atlantic Ocean
Summer
If Axis plays first and invade NY, UK moves to Paris with all she's got. If UK play first she moves with all minus 2 weakest blocks to occupy Biscany and Irish sea, then I guess Axis invades NY, and lets say he kills the fort there.
Fall
Axis moves to Washington and Britain completes Paris, which could have been finished prev season. Now UK is much closer to Mil victory than Axis. USSR is forced to invade from the East and maybe DoW West to capture Berlin & Bombay.
 
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Major considerations include

At the beginning of WWII, the US Army was comparable in size to that of Belgium's army, but . . .

Even D-Day involved no more than two blocks. The troops have to be transported and supplied. Only the West could manage even two blocks.

The US had a large, well-armed population with massive industrial capacity and massive resources on a large continent that would require a huge army and a lot of time to pacify. Think what General Sherman had to do to subdue the South in the US Civil War.

The Germans might be able to bomb US Industry for a while, but the retribution would be inevitable and severe.

Dieter
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Highlander
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Nakraal wrote:
(...) but imho what you report comes into the optimal vs severely suboptimal play.(...)


From my experience this game has so many options, that such "Axis-USA Ocean Trip" is more a tactical opportunity than effect of long-term Axis strategy.
For sure the Axis player is the one with initiative for first 3-5 years and he decides to play a peaceful, early-aggressive, late-aggressive game and usually selects his first Enemy Rival.
The fog of war on unit blocks makes very difficult for Allies or Soviet to predict the Axis plans. Did he focused on naval? Air & strategical bombardment? Ground & air only? Defensive fortresses & atomic bomb? Are his hidden techs atomic bomb or air boots or ground boots? Etc.

As Axis, you can make a "classical" opening with conquering Low Countries and Paris (possible even in 1936). Then you can check the situation and make tactical decision - "Sea Lion" or "Ocean Trip" depending on Allied Fleet deployments. Some Allied players fear to disperse their fleet on many sea, as it can be easily attacked by superior groups during enemy moves. If Soviet rushes on Berlin through Poland you can make a tactical decision to attack Leningrad via Baltic/Sweden/Finland. In fact most of our military KO wins was Axis taking Paris and Leningrad.

The "Ocean Trip" seems interesting tactical decision as your Rivals should not expect it. In our T&T games usually one Rival implements "a surprise strategy" and - if not completely unlucky in dice rolling - wins.

Nakraal wrote:

During the 30s building more than 3 as the West, 5 as USSR and 7 as Axis is a strong indication of that someone is gearing up for an early war.


Maybe your group prefer "peaceful" or "late war" strategies? Early wars are common in our game plays, including Axis military KO's before 1939.
On this forum there is a very interesting thread about "How to survive first years playing West against aggressive Axis?" and the outcome recommendation is to spend one or two years of West production 100% on building units to secure London, sea trade routes and Paris. If West ignores "steps", it means they build industry and will surpass Axis production in few years. That's a clear message for Axis to attack Paris ASAP. But that's digression from the topic of this thread
 
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