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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: trucks rss

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Patrick Mooney
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When a truck is hit, does it draw from the vehicle cup? If so what does a gun damaged marker do to a truck
 
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Kurt R
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padraic49 wrote:
When a truck is hit, does it draw from the vehicle cup? If so what does a gun damaged marker do to a truck

This is a non-obvious rule, but trucks and wagons draw from the infantry cup due to their red infantry defense numbers even though they have vehicle movement stats.

BTW, I couldn't find anywhere in the rules that explicitly states this. Foot units are those described as having red movement stats. Uwe mentioned this in a thread over on the solo expansion which is only how I know.

Edit: to be clear, Uwe was speaking of wagons which have red defense values but so do trucks so one can assume it applies to them as well.
 
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Danick Cloutier
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Hi,
trucks do draw hit marker from the vehicle cup.
If a truck as a 'gun gamaged' hit marker, then it cannot attack units with the same Defence Rating color as the color of 'gun who is damaged'.
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Danick Cloutier
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enzo622 wrote:
padraic49 wrote:
When a truck is hit, does it draw from the vehicle cup? If so what does a gun damaged marker do to a truck

This is a non-obvious rule, but trucks and wagons draw from the infantry cup due to their red infantry defense numbers even though they have vehicle movement stats.

BTW, I couldn't find anywhere in the rules that explicitly states this. Foot units are those described as having red movement stats. Uwe mentioned this in a thread over on the solo expansion which is only how I know.


You sure about trucks and wagon drawing from the infantry cup, sir?
 
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Kurt R
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maedhros wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
padraic49 wrote:
When a truck is hit, does it draw from the vehicle cup? If so what does a gun damaged marker do to a truck

This is a non-obvious rule, but trucks and wagons draw from the infantry cup due to their red infantry defense numbers even though they have vehicle movement stats.

BTW, I couldn't find anywhere in the rules that explicitly states this. Foot units are those described as having red movement stats. Uwe mentioned this in a thread over on the solo expansion which is only how I know.


You sure about trucks and wagon drawing from the infantry cup, sir?

Well... He was speaking of wagons and their red defense values. Trucks also have red defense values. So ... you tell me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25159926#25159926
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Danick Cloutier
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Following the rulebook Trucks and Wagon are vehicles and thus draw hit marker from the vehicle cup.
 
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Danick Cloutier
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enzo622 wrote:
maedhros wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
padraic49 wrote:
When a truck is hit, does it draw from the vehicle cup? If so what does a gun damaged marker do to a truck

This is a non-obvious rule, but trucks and wagons draw from the infantry cup due to their red infantry defense numbers even though they have vehicle movement stats.

BTW, I couldn't find anywhere in the rules that explicitly states this. Foot units are those described as having red movement stats. Uwe mentioned this in a thread over on the solo expansion which is only how I know.


You sure about trucks and wagon drawing from the infantry cup, sir?

Well... He was speaking of wagons and their red defense values. Trucks also have red defense values. So ... you tell me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25159926#25159926


So Wagon from the foot hit marker and truck from the vehicle hit marker?
 
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Russ Williams
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Argh... CoH is so often recommended over other WW2 tactical games because of its supposedly simple clear easy rules, yet this kind of basic inconsistent confusion (which really leaves people unsure in scenarios) comes up frustratingly way too often, a lot more than with the other WW2 tactical games I've played. :/

Quote:
7.4 Hits
When an un-hit unit takes a hit, its player draws a Hit Marker
and, without revealing it to his opponent, places it face down
under the unit that has been hit. Pull hits against Foot Units
from the shared Foot Hit Marker draw pile and pull hits against
Vehicles from the shared Vehicle Hit Marker draw pile.

...

16.0 Trucks and Wagons
Trucks and wagons represent
vehicles designed to move other
units and supplies over roads.


Hmm, trying to resolve the apparent contradiction with the linked comment of Uwe (that Wagons use Foot hit markers), I note that rule 16.0 does not literally say that Trucks and Wagons ARE vehicles, only that they "represent vehicles".

I wonder if we are supposed to read that as implying that they are not really vehicles, but that they are in fact Foot Units which only "represent vehicles" in some sense...? shake

More likely is that they are exceptional vehicles (due to their red defense values, instead of blue defense values), with nothing to explain or mention this, and that Rule 7.4 SHOULD have said something like this:

My hypothesis of what rules 7.4 should have said wrote:
7.4 Hits
Pull hits against units with red defense values (typically but not necessarily Foot Units)
from the shared Foot Hit Marker draw pile and pull hits against
units with blue defense values (typically but not necessarily Vehicles) from the shared Vehicle Hit Marker draw pile.


But I don't know...
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Kurt R
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Well said, Russ. Right there with you on a rewrite to 7.4. That's how I'm playing it.
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Marcus Lind
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Some units have both RED and BLUE defense values.
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Russ Williams
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marcuslind1 wrote:
Some units have both RED and BLUE defense values.

Uh-oh. We're going to need a bigger rule revision!

(obscure "Jaws" reference...)
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Marcus Lind
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It might be like this:

Units with GREEN movement values (wheeled veichle units) draw hit markers according to to the colour of their defense values.
RED = Foot hit marker (example: Truck/Opel)
BLUE = Vehicle hit marker (example: BA-10 Armored Car)

Alternatively:

Wagons are the only vehicles to draw Foot hit markers.

I think this calls for an official answer.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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russ wrote:
marcuslind1 wrote:
Some units have both RED and BLUE defense values.

Uh-oh. We're going to need a bigger rule revision!

(obscure "Jaws" reference...)


Not THAT obscure...

Wagons are not vehicles really. They are simply wheeled devices with no power or weapons -- pulled by horses, right?

Trucks are vehicles, do have their own source of power. But are they armed (not looking at a counter).

Hard to damage the guns of an unarmed unit.
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Kurt R
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klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
marcuslind1 wrote:
Some units have both RED and BLUE defense values.

Uh-oh. We're going to need a bigger rule revision!

(obscure "Jaws" reference...)


Not THAT obscure...

Wagons are not vehicles really. They are simply wheeled devices with no power or weapons -- pulled by horses, right?

Trucks are vehicles, do have their own source of power. But are they armed (not looking at a counter).

Hard to damage the guns of an unarmed unit.

Here's the exact quote:

wrote:
Wagons have RED defense values, so pull from the Foot hit counter pool.

What does logic tell you to do with the red defense trucks?
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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enzo622 wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
marcuslind1 wrote:
Some units have both RED and BLUE defense values.

Uh-oh. We're going to need a bigger rule revision!

(obscure "Jaws" reference...)


Not THAT obscure...

Wagons are not vehicles really. They are simply wheeled devices with no power or weapons -- pulled by horses, right?

Trucks are vehicles, do have their own source of power. But are they armed (not looking at a counter).

Hard to damage the guns of an unarmed unit.

Here's the exact quote:

Quote:
Wagons have RED defense values, so pull from the Foot hit counter pool.

What does logic tell you to do with the red defense trucks?


Same thing it's said to everyone else... never argued the point. In fact, I just stated that in spite of being vehicles, they should probably be pulling from the foot damage counters.
 
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Kurt R
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Yeah, nobody is arguing the point here. I'm just agreeing with Russ that there's more confusion here than needs to be.
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Russ Williams
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klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
marcuslind1 wrote:
Some units have both RED and BLUE defense values.

Uh-oh. We're going to need a bigger rule revision!

(obscure "Jaws" reference...)


Not THAT obscure...

Yay! (You never know with kids today...)

Quote:
Wagons are not vehicles really. They are simply wheeled devices with no power or weapons -- pulled by horses, right?

Which is a vehicle! Horse-drawn vehicles (aka wagons) are a thing...

And the rules even seem to call them vehicles (unless one wants to interpret "represent vehicles" to mean "but are not really vehicles"). And they only appear in the rulebook in the later sections full of Vehicle rules, in the same specific section (section 16) with Armored Personnel Carriers (which also "represent vehicles").
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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My bad... I was going with the more modern vernacular...

Officially: "a thing used for transporting people or goods, especially on land, such as a car, truck, or cart."
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Simo Ahava
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Yeah, this is one example where the rules are very confusing. Clarity would improve if Chapter 16.0 (Trucks and Wagons) clearly stated that these units should draw from the Foot Unit hit marker pile, emphasizing that this is an exception. It would also be a good idea to repeat this detail in 7.4 and 15.2 (Foot Unit and Vehicle Hit markers, respectively) to alleviate confusion.

The red defence rating alone isn't a valid explanation, since red defence rating is defined as a "soft target" vs. blue as a "hard target" (Chapter 7.0), and neither soft nor hard target is mentioned with hit markers anywhere in the rules.
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Confusion Under Fire
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sahava wrote:
Yeah, this is one example where the rules are very confusing. Clarity would improve if Chapter 16.0 (Trucks and Wagons) clearly stated that these units should draw from the Foot Unit hit marker pile, emphasizing that this is an exception. It would also be a good idea to repeat this detail in 7.4 and 15.2 (Foot Unit and Vehicle Hit markers, respectively) to alleviate confusion.

The red defence rating alone isn't a valid explanation, since red defence rating is defined as a "soft target" vs. blue as a "hard target" (Chapter 7.0), and neither soft nor hard target is mentioned with hit markers anywhere in the rules.


I agree this would be a case where an exception rule would be more appropriate than a long winded explanation of red/blue defence values.

Now I have to persuade my opponent that my Panzerkampfwagens only receive an infantry hit marker whistle whistle
 
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Danick Cloutier
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For my part I prefer to have an "Immobilized" Truck/Wagon rather than a "Pinned" one.
Subtil difference.

 
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Martin Gallo
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Maybe the third edition could add "truck/wagon damage damage chits"?

Or you could just simply roll a die and on a '1' the truck or wagon is not destroyed? Maybe a '2' is just immobilized?
 
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Marcus Lind
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Is a third edition planned/confirmed?
 
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Lewis Karl
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No, he's jesting (I think). But still no.
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Marcus Lind
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Phew
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