Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

Aeon's End» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Aeon's End Weekly Discussion: V'riswood Amber rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Abel Kim
United States
Flower Mound
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
I am a Turtle.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"When you gain this, you may place this on top of your deck.
Gain 2 Aether."

Talk about this card, why you like it, if you think it is strong or weak. Oh and the KS is up tomorrow, so have fun .
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ah, Amber. It's one of those cards where you pay a slight premium over Jade for a slight benefit. Amber can be okay or great, depending on just how well you're tracking your upcoming hand. I find it's most commonly bought on your second turn, so you can stack up a full gem / almost-full-gem hand turn 3 for a huge jump. (This is especially true for those with two purchasing hands - Gem on turn 1 plus Amber on turn 2 can easily lead to 7 or 8 Aether hands early.

It's a one-time effect so it's not incredibly strong, and its stacking ability becomes harder to use well as the game goes on - it's best used as an early launching point.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Crazed Survivor
France
flag msg tools
The Orzhov welcome you. Please leave your belongings with the Obzedat. They are not yours anymore.
badge
Hi, I'm a european crested tit, and a very small punk rocker!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think I've ever played with this card, or purchased it.

And, given't the chance, I probably wouldn't. It brings nothing really interesting. All the other gems, ranging from 3 to 5, give a nice bonus to the 2 aether, one that can help turning the tides (3 if you purchase a spell, discarding a card to make an ally draw a card, topdeck control, 4 if you put a card from your hand on top of your deck). I guess in some fringe situations, or at the very, very beginning of the game, Amber could be useful, such as when you want to discard an expensive power card and know you're 2 aether short, and so on. Or when playing solitaire and you want to draw into this...

At any rate, I'd rather cycle through a deck and hit an interesting effect, than make my deck cycling one card longer than necessary and clutter it with a Jade.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Tang
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I rate V'riswood Amber a . Note that my ratings are based on it's power level, not a rating of how much I like the card.

Do note that my rating is not really that "the card is bad and unplayable", rather, it is highly situational and very difficult to use correctly. I would not recommend this card in any other mode than in a handpicked strategy for tackling a challenge mode. V'riswood Amber is a card you put into the market and maybe only buy once or twice the entire game.

Personally, I think of it as the weakest and most situational gem in the game. After one cycle, the card is equivalent to a Jade in almost all situations (notable exception, it does more damage if you discard it with Oblivion swell).

The benefit of this card is entirely upfront: it ensures that your next draw phase will include 2 extra aether. But it comes at a pretty big opportunity cost in that your draws will be pushed back. This means you will potentially pick up that monstrous inferno one turn later, or that you'll edge out a stronger gem such as a Sapphire. This pushes this card as an early game card only, unless you are buying it as a more expensive Jade for the extra floating Aether you would have had on that turn.

To have a fair comparison, we'd have to compare it to leeching agate. Same cost, and both cards are effectively expensive Jades after their first usage. The leeching agate is much better, because it's personal upfront value is pretty good to begin with. In the very early game, you are often faced with a decision of "do I want to charge, or do I want to get gems to prepare for the late game". Leeching agate is a card that lets you do both efficiently. On the flip side, the immediate value you get out of V'riswood Amber is that you get to draw it earlier, it adds no tangible value, only potential strategic value.

Therefore, V'riswood Amber is a card that increases strategic complexity. Since you have perfect information of the cards in your deck (against most bosses, and for the majority of the game), you can plan out an elaborate scheme to use V'riswood Amber to spiral a purchasing train such that you get a specific card 1 or 2 turns earlier. This spiral is usually over several turns, such as 4 or 5 turns, which is ridiculously hard to plan out. A strategy such of this is very hard to improvise with a randomized market.

I rate V'riswood Amber a 1/5 due to how strategically demanding it is, with not much value added. If I get this card from a randomized market, I consider it a "bad roll".

How to make V'riswood Amber a better card: have it cost more and give 3 Aether instead. Something like 6 cost, gives 3 aether would be really cool, because then it would serve as an emergency boost to aether generation in your deck.

Edit: after discussion, I've boosted V'riswood amber up to a 2 star card. This is a really hard card to evaluate, because there are really only a few turns in which this card is good, but during those turns it can be pretty insane. Suppose you have a character who starts off with 4 crystals in hand, and 3 crystals in deck. On turn 1, you can buy a more expensive gem, such as Searing Ruby. On turn 2, you can buy a Vriswood Amber. This puts the two gems next to each other, which means that your 3rd turn will be a hand of 3 crystals, a vriswood, and one other higher cost gem. This gives you 7 aether to purchase pretty much anything in the game (8 with Searing Ruby). Because of this, V'riswood Amber is a card that has a very niche purpose, but the niche purpose is extremely strong. There is perhaps only a 2-3 turn window in which buying this card is worth, as in the late game, there are very few reasons to use it.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The value of having early 'power' money turns is where V'ris shines. That and dealing with immediate aether requirements. Being able to hit 6,7,8 some turns early makes a huge difference or being able to more consistently get rid of expensive powers. V'ris isn't a card to buy just as general economy, but when surgically applied its effects are immense.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Crazed Survivor
France
flag msg tools
The Orzhov welcome you. Please leave your belongings with the Obzedat. They are not yours anymore.
badge
Hi, I'm a european crested tit, and a very small punk rocker!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qxc0 wrote:
The value of having early 'power' money turns is where V'ris shines. That and dealing with immediate aether requirements. Being able to hit 6,7,8 some turns early makes a huge difference or being able to more consistently get rid of expensive powers. V'ris isn't a card to buy just as general economy, but when surgically applied its effects are immense.


I can see it being strong in a market where most of the cards cost 5+ and your mage would only have 3 crystals in their starting deck. By paying 3, putting V'ris on top of your deck, and keeping one crystal in hand, you'd be able to reach 6 aether on turn two and maybe buy a Clouded Sapphire. You'd then could buy a Devastating Scythe on turn 4. That'd be strong.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Razoupaf wrote:
qxc0 wrote:
The value of having early 'power' money turns is where V'ris shines. That and dealing with immediate aether requirements. Being able to hit 6,7,8 some turns early makes a huge difference or being able to more consistently get rid of expensive powers. V'ris isn't a card to buy just as general economy, but when surgically applied its effects are immense.


I can see it being strong in a market where most of the cards cost 5+ and your mage would only have 3 crystals in their starting deck. By paying 3, putting V'ris on top of your deck, and keeping one crystal in hand, you'd be able to reach 6 aether on turn two and maybe buy a Clouded Sapphire. You'd then could buy a Devastating Scythe on turn 4. That'd be strong.


But that's all hypothetical because you've never used this card
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yeah. As far as I can think of it, there are two specific patterns you can use for amber:

1. Buy Amber turn 1, with crystals saved/crystals in your deck, leading to a 6-aether turn 2.
1. Buy any gem turn 1. (This can be amber, as long as you don't use its effect.) Buy Amber turn 2. Have a turn 3 with Amber + Gem + 3x Crystal, leading to a 7-aether turn 3.

When some spells or gems are incredibly powerful as an early-game purchase, that much aether in one turn can have someone set until the mid-game, or start an early economy build.

This isn't something that you want everybody to do, and not every mage has the correct spark/breach/gem count to allow for it. However, it is something that allows one person to be very good at taking down tier 1 minions, or start someone's snowball early (with something like Clouded Sapphire, Arcane Nexus, etc.)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Tang
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Yes, but my opinion is that it is too hard to plan for the average player. It's not "bad" just highly situational. The best thing that can happen with vris is you buy it and it boots off a spark from your next draw. But since you cannot inspect your deck order, only the discard pile, you have to memorizs the count and order of your deck to consistently get this value. Booting off a crystal, but getting one more aether is almost inconsequential in most cases thus far, especially with the sunk costs of mana the previous turn. You can almost think of vris in the most likely case to be "spend one aether this turn, gain an extra next turn". Therefore, this card is situational.

Another big problem is that 3 cost is an extremely awkward aether count for the early game. The majority of characters released so far start with 4 aether, so buying vris is a bust. Even those who start with 2 sparks often have a way to get bonus aether (moonshard on Jian). Those with 3 crystals on turn 2 often have a spell prepped from turn 1 that grants them aether. So the use of a 3 aether comes at a bigger loss here. Borrowing terminology from magic, you lose value (generally) if you do not play "on curve".

Vris invites a highly choreographed style o play where you think many turns ahead. However, the general game design of this game doesn't really lead to this type of play: interacting with other players and the board is more fun than running simulations in your head. The randomness from the nemesis deck also forces you to change plans often, which makes choreographed play sometimes a sunk cost that is never recocered. This game design overall will be played in a more "greedy" fashion. Of the 10 or so different people ive shown this game, all of them went for this greedy playstle.

Another way to buff vris is the ability to place it on ANY players deck. That would open up this card as generally good, and strategic. I think this would be better design for this card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TangerineCat wrote:
Yes, but my opinion is that it is too hard to plan for the average player. It's not "bad" just highly situational. The best thing that can happen with vris is you buy it and it boots off a spark from your next draw. But since you cannot inspect your deck order, only the discard pile, you have to memorizs the count and order of your deck to consistently get this value. Booting off a crystal, but getting one more aether is almost inconsequential in most cases thus far, especially with the sunk costs of mana the previous turn. You can almost think of vris in the most likely case to be "spend one aether this turn, gain an extra next turn". Therefore, this card is situational.

Another big problem is that 3 cost is an extremely awkward aether count for the early game. The majority of characters released so far start with 4 aether, so buying vris is a bust. Even those who start with 2 sparks often have a way to get bonus aether (moonshard on Jian). Those with 3 crystals on turn 2 often have a spell prepped from turn 1 that grants them aether. So the use of a 3 aether comes at a bigger loss here. Borrowing terminology from magic, you lose value (generally) if you do not play "on curve".

Vris invites a highly choreographed style o play where you think many turns ahead. However, the general game design of this game doesn't really lead to this type of play: interacting with other players and the board is more fun than running simulations in your head. The randomness from the nemesis deck also forces you to change plans often, which makes choreographed play sometimes a sunk cost that is never recocered. This game design overall will be played in a more "greedy" fashion. Of the 10 or so different people ive shown this game, all of them went for this greedy playstle.

Another way to buff vris is the ability to place it on ANY players deck. That would open up this card as generally good, and strategic. I think this would be better design for this card.


Your analysis is pretty accurate. I don't think this is a great card for casual use - its use cases need enough planning/preparation that its got a niche case. However, it does also work very well if you can prepare for that case.

As for your suggestions... If I'm remembering playtest cards correctly, you'll be able to see how that design space is used in War Eternal.

(I disagree that a 6 cost, 3 value, to-top-deck gem would be a preferable change - it'd be okay, but it's competing with Clouded Sapphire, and Clouded Sapphire is one of the strongest gems available, if not the strongest. Maybe at 5 cost.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TangerineCat wrote:
Yes, but my opinion is that it is too hard to plan for the average player. It's not "bad" just highly situational. The best thing that can happen with vris is you buy it and it boots off a spark from your next draw. But since you cannot inspect your deck order, only the discard pile, you have to memorizs the count and order of your deck to consistently get this value. Booting off a crystal, but getting one more aether is almost inconsequential in most cases thus far, especially with the sunk costs of mana the previous turn. You can almost think of vris in the most likely case to be "spend one aether this turn, gain an extra next turn". Therefore, this card is situational.

Another big problem is that 3 cost is an extremely awkward aether count for the early game. The majority of characters released so far start with 4 aether, so buying vris is a bust. Even those who start with 2 sparks often have a way to get bonus aether (moonshard on Jian). Those with 3 crystals on turn 2 often have a spell prepped from turn 1 that grants them aether. So the use of a 3 aether comes at a bigger loss here. Borrowing terminology from magic, you lose value (generally) if you do not play "on curve".

Vris invites a highly choreographed style o play where you think many turns ahead. However, the general game design of this game doesn't really lead to this type of play: interacting with other players and the board is more fun than running simulations in your head. The randomness from the nemesis deck also forces you to change plans often, which makes choreographed play sometimes a sunk cost that is never recocered. This game design overall will be played in a more "greedy" fashion. Of the 10 or so different people ive shown this game, all of them went for this greedy playstle.

Another way to buff vris is the ability to place it on ANY players deck. That would open up this card as generally good, and strategic. I think this would be better design for this card.


You make it sound like using V'ris requires some sort of feat of brilliance. You buy any gem and then the turn before you would draw the gem you bought, you buy a V'riswood Amber. That's all there is to it to have a pretty spectacular early money turn.

Certainly there can be lost value from not spending all your money, but depending on the market, 4 might not be much better, or perhaps the initial lost value is worth being able to buy a 7 or 8 extra early in the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Tang
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
After some more theory crafting, I'd say that vriswood amber is a turn 2 play. Turn 1 buy searing ruby. Turn 2 buy vris. Turn 3,buy radiance. This is a 2 turn improvement over 1 buy searing ruby, 3 buy searing ruby, 5 buy radiance
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TangerineCat wrote:
After some more theory crafting, I'd say that vriswood amber is a turn 2 play. Turn 1 buy searing ruby. Turn 2 buy vris. Turn 3,buy radiance. This is a 2 turn improvement over 1 buy searing ruby, 3 buy searing ruby, 5 buy radiance


That sounds like a pretty ridiculous start.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Tang
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
So with that I think this card has a powerful, but niche use. There is a small window in which you extract the most value from this card, and that is probably turns 2-5. I think this card will be integral to speed run/zerg strategies where the goal is not only to win, but to win the fastest. With that, I have a hard time rating this card, because it's generally weak, but situationally insane.

I want to try a challenge where I try to defeat prince of gluttons as fast as humanly possible, and see what kind of shenanigans I can pull with this card. Stupid answer: play 4 players, everyone picks up disintegrating scythes, consuming voids, and bottled vortexes and just rapid fire scythes.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Crazed Survivor
France
flag msg tools
The Orzhov welcome you. Please leave your belongings with the Obzedat. They are not yours anymore.
badge
Hi, I'm a european crested tit, and a very small punk rocker!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I used V'Riswood Amber to day to purchase a turn 2 Clouded Sapphire. That was helpful against Wayward One, which I successfully managed to defeat on my first attempt (which makes me believe that I did something wrong!)
It is indeed a nice boost
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think any of the nemeses are designed to be so hard that you can't have a good shot at beating them after you've already played 30 games. Not yet anyway.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Crazed Survivor
France
flag msg tools
The Orzhov welcome you. Please leave your belongings with the Obzedat. They are not yours anymore.
badge
Hi, I'm a european crested tit, and a very small punk rocker!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qxc0 wrote:
I don't think any of the nemeses are designed to be so hard that you can't have a good shot at beating them after you've already played 30 games. Not yet anyway.


Just to make sure anyway, slinging a misaligned Spark against him still does 1 damage and a misaligned Sage's Brand prepped on breaches II and III does him 4 damage, right? ((+6+1)/2 rounded up = 4)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Razoupaf wrote:
qxc0 wrote:
I don't think any of the nemeses are designed to be so hard that you can't have a good shot at beating them after you've already played 30 games. Not yet anyway.


Just to make sure anyway, slinging a misaligned Spark against him still does 1 damage and a misaligned Sage's Brand prepped on breaches II and III does him 4 damage, right? ((+6+1)/2 rounded up = 4)


Yea, that's right.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Crazed Survivor
France
flag msg tools
The Orzhov welcome you. Please leave your belongings with the Obzedat. They are not yours anymore.
badge
Hi, I'm a european crested tit, and a very small punk rocker!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I know what I did wrong.

When Wayward unleashes twice, I treated it in a single package. So I switched him twice, and GH lost 6 HP if there was no spell to discard.
But if there was, I treated it as "discard a spell that is aligned to the position WO ends after switching twice". It should have dealt 3 damage to GH and then switched again but I forgot that. It happened twice.
Gravehold should have been at -02 and I should have lost :/
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin 'qxc' Riley
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Razoupaf wrote:
I know what I did wrong.

When Wayward unleashes twice, I treated it in a single package. So I switched him twice, and GH lost 6 HP if there was no spell to discard.
But if there was, I treated it as "discard a spell that is aligned to the position WO ends after switching twice". It should have dealt 3 damage to GH and then switched again but I forgot that. It happened twice.
Gravehold should have been at -02 and I should have lost :/


Better luck next time
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.