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5-Minute Dungeon» Forums » Rules

Subject: Living FAQ rss

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M.C.Crispy
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Wiggle3D doesn't have a huge BGG presence so we're on our own here (though, like FFG, the publisher will respond to direct queries). I've had some clarifications from the designer and there are a few questions that look as though we'll see them a few times, so I thought that I'd start a Living FAQ early on. It might not turn into anything big (it's not a complex game, right?) but anyways, let's get started:

General
Q: Can I just discard cards if I want/need to?
A: No. You can play any card to the table (unless you are fighting a Boss - but see below), these are not "discards" as they don't go on your discard pile, so you won't get them back until the end of the game and you might run out of cards. If you all run out of cards, you will, of course lose the game (see Losing, condition #1 in the rulebook)
Note: This is a very contentious point! The designer did not intend that players should be able to "flush" cards to the table in order to draw matching symbols, such flushing could be regarded as gaming the system, but is a direct consequence of the "a card laid is a card played" rule.

Q: I can't play a card that has a matching symbol, what do I do?
A: If your character power doesn't help you, you'll have to wait until somebody else clears the Door/Challenge. Of course if everyone is stuck too, you just lost! (see "discarding cards" above, see also Losing, condition #3 in the rulebook)

Q: I'm fighting a Boss, but I don't have any cards that have matching symbols, what do I do?
A: I'm afraid that you are stuck - unless you have Magic Bomb, Wildcard, or a multi-symbol card that has at least one symbol that is still needed


Character Abilities
Q: How does the Wizard's Stop Time ability work
A: You pause the timer and take any action that isn't playing a card - for instance, using a (different) Character's ability


Card-specific
Q: How does a Magic Bomb work against a Boss
A: Because the Magic Bomb has every symbol, it always matches at least one needed symbol so you can play it and ignore the non-matching symbols

Q: How does a Wildcard (green deck) work vs. Bosses
A: Like a Magic Bomb, the symbol always matches a needed symbol, so Wildcard can always be played

Q: How do multi-symbol cards (like in the red deck) work vs. Bosses
A: As long as one of the symbols on the card is needed, you can play the card and ignore the non-matching or not needed symbol

Q: Does the Holy Hand Grenade really work against Bosses?
A: Yes, yes it does

Q: How does the yellow deck card Divine Shield work
A: You pause the timer and everyone draws a card. Once everyone has their card, you can plan your next actions, make a cup of teas, whatever, until you play a card and start the timer


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Greg Allen
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As to your question:

"Q: I can't play a card that has a matching symbol, what do I do?"

I'm referencing from the rule book on losing condition as below:

"If your party is unable to match the symbols of a card in
the Dungeon and cannot use a hero ability or action card
to defeat it."

On this basis, i reckon that we can't simply just play any cards on a door card, which essentially makes the game darn easy to play as u can just play your cards and draw cards if according to your answer.

The answer to your question should be:

1. If you can't match all the symbols, you can use character abilities if it allows to kill the door (e.g. Steve is the door card, Ranger can use his ability to discard 3 cards to defeat a Person)

2.If you really can't defeat the door or final boss after u have tried to use your abilities, yall essentially has just died in the dungeon and lose.
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Greg Allen
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As for question below:

Q: Does the Holy Hand Grenade really work against bosses?

I would agree on your answer as the rulebook says so, but the wording on the card says "Defeat any card" which in context is unclear as final boss is not card but is a "boss mat"

Oh well, something to discuss about.
 
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Greg Allen
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Me and my group has always been playing cards in a way that if our symbols exceed the requirement or it doesn't match, you're suppose to take it back immediately or when someone can play a card to defeat the door, we allow them to take back their cards essentially before they draw back cards.

This is so we cannot simply draw cards as we like.

I'm not sure if it's correct or wrong since it doesn't clarify in the rulebook on playing cards.

Please help. Would love to hear officially from the creator
 
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M.C.Crispy
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algoh wrote:
As to your question:

"Q: I can't play a card that has a matching symbol, what do I do?"

I'm referencing from the rule book on losing condition as below:

"If your party is unable to match the symbols of a card in
the Dungeon and cannot use a hero ability or action card
to defeat it."

On this basis, i reckon that we can't simply just play any cards on a door card, which essentially makes the game darn easy to play as u can just play your cards and draw cards if according to your answer.

The answer to your question should be:

1. If you can't match all the symbols, you can use character abilities if it allows to kill the door (e.g. Steve is the door card, Ranger can use his ability to discard 3 cards to defeat a Person)
I have clarified with the designer: you can play cards to the middle to flush cards through your hand. The downside is that those cards are gone from the game so you might run out of cards.

Quote:
2.If you really can't defeat the door or final boss after u have tried to use your abilities, yall essentially has just died in the dungeon and lose.
I have clarified with the designer: see the clarification post I made in this forum
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M.C.Crispy
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algoh wrote:
As for question below:

Q: Does the Holy Hand Grenade really work against bosses?

I would agree on your answer as the rulebook says so, but the wording on the card says "Defeat any card" which in context is unclear as final boss is not card but is a "boss mat"

Oh well, something to discuss about.
you can house rule if you want, but the rulebook is very specific and expands on the text of the card. Hand Grenade defeats Bosses.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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algoh wrote:
Me and my group has always been playing cards in a way that if our symbols exceed the requirement or it doesn't match, you're suppose to take it back immediately or when someone can play a card to defeat the door, we allow them to take back their cards essentially before they draw back cards.

This is so we cannot simply draw cards as we like.

I'm not sure if it's correct or wrong since it doesn't clarify in the rulebook on playing cards.

Please help. Would love to hear officially from the creator
If you want to hear officially from the creator then please do contact them direct and post the result here, we'd all be pleased to see the response. You are unlikely to get a response directly from the designer/publisher in these forums.

However, if you're prepared to accept the little insight I have from my communication with the designer

1) You can take back any card that you haven't yet let go of (Chess-style )
2) "A card laid is a card played" whether it's a legal card or not, you played it, it's gone. Unless...
3) If the card doesn't have at least one needed symbol and you are fighting the Boss, then you cannot play the card and have to take it back
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Greg Allen
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Ok let me just get this straight. So only if fighting boss, whatever symbols that doesnt match at all cannot be played and if just any other doors or challenge we can play any cards with any symbols. Right?
 
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algoh wrote:
Ok let me just get this straight. So only if fighting boss, whatever symbols that doesnt match at all cannot be played and if just any other doors or challenge we can play any cards with any symbols. Right?
Correct. For non-Bosses, any card can be legally played to the table (even if only to allow you to draw). For Bosses, unless at least one symbol on the card matches a symbol that is still needed you cannot play the card.

Examples:

"A Chair that is very Uncomfortable" requires Sword+Sprint+Sheild and you only have Scrolls. You play a scroll and draw a card. This is a legal play

"Baby Barbarian" requires 2Sword+2Arrow+2Sprint, you have already played 1Sword+1Arrow+2Sprint so you need 1 of each. You have a Red:Sword/Sprint, a Red:Sword/Shield and Red:Sheild. If you play the Red:Sword/Sprint you cannot play the Red:Sword/Sheild. You cannot play the Red:Sheild, regardless.
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algoh wrote:
Ok let me just get this straight. So only if fighting boss, whatever symbols that doesnt match at all cannot be played and if just any other doors or challenge we can play any cards with any symbols. Right?


That's right.

Essentially this all stems from the rule "a card laid is a card played", meaning that any card you play (not discard) is gone forever. This opens a bit of a loophole in that you can "accidentally" play cards that don't match in order to draw new cards. I wouldn't recommend doing that, as it means you have fewer cards left in your deck to defeat the dungeon. If you're tossing cards away by playing things that don't match, you may find you've run out of cards before the Boss. Whereas, if you're using your abilities to overcome cards (discarding to the discard pile), those cards can be recovered with Healing Herbs, Heal, or Health Potion.

This "loophole" wasn't much of an issue until players got to the boss, where they would just throw their whole deck at the boss. To mitigate this, we've tried to make Bosses more difficult by forcing players to actually match the symbols.
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Kevin Seachrist
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Does "boss" include mini bosses for purposes of pitching cards?
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Rykaar wrote:
Does "boss" include mini bosses for purposes of pitching cards?
Nope, the constraint is specifically for (end game) Bosses (as far as I can tell).
 
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Kevin Seachrist
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That's good! Game's crazy enough without having to bake our noodles trying to figure out how to get around one or more mini-bosses.
 
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Yeah, if there were too many exceptions the game would rapidly become unplayable because the mental overhead would be too high for a simultaneous action game with a time limit. The way it is it can be hard to remember to Discard to your discard pile rather than throw cards into the middle when you want to trigger your character ability.
 
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Big G
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I have a question...Now, I've no idea where i got this from but i had it in my head that you could only use your hero's special ability once per dungeon.

Is that wrong?
 
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Big_G wrote:
I have a question...Now, I've no idea where i got this from but i had it in my head that you could only use your hero's special ability once per dungeon.

Is that wrong?
Yup, that's wrong. Use it as often as you like, though you'll be at risk from running out of cards.
 
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Justin Speyer
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So, I got this response from the designer through Kickstarter with regard to the question of playing non-matching cards on doors. It seems in contrast to folks saying they've been told that you're supposed to toss cards into the center to draw new ones into your hand when you're stuck:

"Hi,

The intent of the "card laid is a card played" rule is not that you should just deliberately throw wrong cards in order to draw new ones. It's meant to cover the situation where a player accidentally plays a wrong card. I suppose if you want to exploit a loophole, you could just keep saying "oops..." as you play wrong cards and pretend it was a mistake, but that's not our intent.

Of course, you may choose to play the game however you want. If you think the game is more fun by "flushing" cards all the time, please feel free to do so! For my money, I think that playing that way detracts from the fun of the game, though.

Regards,
-Pete, Wiggles 3D Games"

So, my reading of this is that for regular doors if you accidentally overplay (i.e. you need two swords and end up accidentally playing six...) then those cards are "laid and played." But the intent was never to be able to just throw cards on the table to refill your hand. This makes the 3rd Losing condition an actual threat. If your party is unable to match the symbols on a card and can't ability out of it, you lose.

I suppose either way there's a possibility of losing. You refuse to flush cards and therefore lose to regular doors and mini-bosses more often...or you flush cards but end up at the Boss without enough cards to do the job. Ultimately it seems like something you can house rule on. But from the above message, it seems the intent wasn't to give you a surefire way to always reach the end Boss by being able to continuously toss and redraw.

Also, given how powerful the Holy Hand Grenade is, if you are able to just flush cards in order to draw up your deck continuously...it's hard to lose a game if you involve the Valkyrie or Paladin.
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M.C.Crispy
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tempo36 wrote:
So, I got this response from the designer through Kickstarter with regard to the question of playing non-matching cards on doors. It seems in contrast to folks saying they've been told that you're supposed to toss cards into the center to draw new ones into your hand when you're stuck:

"Hi,

The intent of the "card laid is a card played" rule is not that you should just deliberately throw wrong cards in order to draw new ones. It's meant to cover the situation where a player accidentally plays a wrong card. I suppose if you want to exploit a loophole, you could just keep saying "oops..." as you play wrong cards and pretend it was a mistake, but that's not our intent.

Of course, you may choose to play the game however you want. If you think the game is more fun by "flushing" cards all the time, please feel free to do so! For my money, I think that playing that way detracts from the fun of the game, though.

Regards,
-Pete, Wiggles 3D Games"

So, my reading of this is that for regular doors if you accidentally overplay (i.e. you need two swords and end up accidentally playing six...) then those cards are "laid and played." But the intent was never to be able to just throw cards on the table to refill your hand. This makes the 3rd Losing condition an actual threat. If your party is unable to match the symbols on a card and can't ability out of it, you lose.

I suppose either way there's a possibility of losing. You refuse to flush cards and therefore lose to regular doors and mini-bosses more often...or you flush cards but end up at the Boss without enough cards to do the job. Ultimately it seems like something you can house rule on. But from the above message, it seems the intent wasn't to give you a surefire way to always reach the end Boss by being able to continuously toss and redraw.

Also, given how powerful the Holy Hand Grenade is, if you are able to just flush cards in order to draw up your deck continuously...it's hard to lose a game if you involve the Valkyrie or Paladin.
Oh dear! That's a very unfortunate and "water muddying" response from Pete. It's not a million miles away from the response from Connor (who is listed as the designer) that we already have on this thread.

Essentially, while it wasn't the designer's intent that you be able to waste cards in order to flush your hand and draw cards that have the required symbol, unless you are playing with sufficient players to have the necessary roles to allow you to always use the roles' powers to draw cards or automatically defeat enemies, you will inevitably hit a situation where you cannot play a card and so have a "stuck" game. I believe that Connor's response recognises this and accepts that exploitation of the "loophole" will be an inevitable part of the game, which is why it is explicitly blocked by the "Boss Rule".
 
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Justin Speyer
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But then it's REALLY REALLY hard to ever hit Loss Condition #3 if you can flush cards to redraw. Essentially almost never...though you might run into the "unable to draw" loss condition if you truly used up all the necessary symbols in your deck. I see both sides of the situation though.

To me though, if you have a loss condition that relies on not being able to beat a door, that sort of implies that there are times where you won't be able to get the right symbols. Being able to continuously draw new cards into your hand defeats that mechanic.
 
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Tony C
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I can see the challenge, but it's not continuously - once a card is "played" even if it didn't really do anything, it's basically out of that game/dungeon.

First time I played, I played like that - no flushing or "playing" of inapplicable cards - and we got stuck somewhat early on and it was very anticlimactic. (We weren't really optimizing our player powers, true.)
And that first play was 2 players - with one deck each. (Blame a rushed reading of the rules!)

From a strict reading of the rules I agree, it should be possible to get "stuck" with a hand of unplayable cards - but I'm not sure if that's more fun than being able to flush cards and run the risk of running out of cards. I'd rather go down swinging, or trying to beat a clock or number of cards, than just get stuck and not be able to do anything.
Plus the later bosses have a lot more cards and a lot of icons to beat them, and flushing gets more dangerous.

So, maybe flushing only at player counts 3 or below, or something?
 
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tempo36 wrote:
But then it's REALLY REALLY hard to ever hit Loss Condition #3 if you can flush cards to redraw. Essentially almost never...though you might run into the "unable to draw" loss condition if you truly used up all the necessary symbols in your deck. I see both sides of the situation though.

To me though, if you have a loss condition that relies on not being able to beat a door, that sort of implies that there are times where you won't be able to get the right symbols. Being able to continuously draw new cards into your hand defeats that mechanic.
While I agree that a loss via condition #3 becomes rare, loss condition #3 is a truly shitty way to lose a game! If you lose via #3 you lost by "being unlucky" and there was nothing you could have done differently - unless you picked characters that allow you to work around that. But then player count forces the roles that you take, but even then there are potential player counts where a #3 becomes reasonably common.

Frankly, I'm not interested in playing a game that just arbitrarily kills the game through "luck". Next time I play I'll try playing with a "no flushing" rule and see what happens (though the last few games I played we hit situations where we were desperately "flushing" to try to find the right card, so I expect it'll be a game killer).
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mccrispy wrote:
If you lose via #3 you lost by "being unlucky" and there was nothing you could have done differently - unless you picked characters that allow you to work around that. But then player count forces the roles that you take


Agreed all around :) And i don't like games where "Oh, you have to play Characters X and Y in order to beat Boss Z." I can see how sometimes it's easier, but when I read something like that (which admittedly I haven't for 5MD), it turns me off the game a little. If a game has a bunch of characters, I'm going to want to be able to use all of them in pretty much all game configurations.
 
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dtcarson wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
If you lose via #3 you lost by "being unlucky" and there was nothing you could have done differently - unless you picked characters that allow you to work around that. But then player count forces the roles that you take


Agreed all around And i don't like games where "Oh, you have to play Characters X and Y in order to beat Boss Z." I can see how sometimes it's easier, but when I read something like that (which admittedly I haven't for 5MD), it turns me off the game a little. If a game has a bunch of characters, I'm going to want to be able to use all of them in pretty much all game configurations.

We also had a problem with this and got stuck several times. We ended changing one of the characters to the Thief. Also we thought of a houserule... you are able to discard all of your hand at once and immediately draw a new one of one card less of the hand limit you originally had... in this way you can refresh your hand at a cost.
 
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Ashish Nair
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My friends and I had the same issue of getting stuck the first few times we played. We tried different configurations and realised that while obviously some were better than others, the strength of a configuration was more dependent on the type of cards and mini-bosses cards in the boss deck, because we'd often get stuck anyway until we started:

A. Coordinating our hand management/card play more (e.g. by saying what we had, knowing the strengths of other decks better, and suggesting things, very quickly of course)

B. Interestingly, using our special hero powers to quickly zoom past most creatures (e.g. discard three cards to kill person/monster, etc.). Granted, we'd use the holy hand grenade 9/10 times to kill the boss, but there are a lot of times where a card's cost requires a lot of one type (Cactus, I'm looking at you) where it's better to use the special power in terms of time and hand management.

Fwiw we got up to the final or KS penultimate boss using - Valkyrie, Hunter, Thief.
 
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Zhalfrin wrote:
My friends and I had the same issue of getting stuck the first few times we played. We tried different configurations and realised that while obviously some were better than others, the strength of a configuration was more dependent on the type of cards and mini-bosses cards in the boss deck, because we'd often get stuck anyway until we started:

A. Coordinating our hand management/card play more (e.g. by saying what we had, knowing the strengths of other decks better, and suggesting things, very quickly of course)

B. Interestingly, using our special hero powers to quickly zoom past most creatures (e.g. discard three cards to kill person/monster, etc.). Granted, we'd use the holy hand grenade 9/10 times to kill the boss, but there are a lot of times where a card's cost requires a lot of one type (Cactus, I'm looking at you) where it's better to use the special power in terms of time and hand management.

Fwiw we got up to the final or KS penultimate boss using - Valkyrie, Hunter, Thief.
Yes, if you have the three "kill X for 3 discards" types in your team you just have somebody call the Door/Event type and have the appropriate character discard. You have to be a bit careful with cards that only take 2 resources to deal with as it gets a bit expensive otherwise. Similarly, if you take the kill for discard route, you'd better have a character that can heal from the discard. And that leads to fairly inflexible party makeup, which I find to be restrictive and undesirable.
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