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Defenders of the Last Stand» Forums » Rules

Subject: Unanswered questions -- Sabotaging leaders and Overruns rss

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David Griffin
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Am I right in saying that if there are 2 earthers on a square and you add 2 techies, that this does NOT cause an overrun since they are not all of the same type? If this is not true, then the added tech card to Krank for overruns makes no sense to me.

Second, is there any reason to not allow a leader to be sabotaged to death? If not, I presume his abilities do not activate since it is not a combat. I assume also that his abilities don't activate when he is hit by the Lightning of the Ancients.

Thanks.

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Neil Edmonds
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Am I right in saying that if there are 2 earthers on a square and you add 2 techies, that this does NOT cause an overrun since they are not all of the same type? If this is not true, then the added tech card to Krank for overruns makes no sense to me.


No, I'm afraid that's wrong and the combination of 2 Earthers plus 2 Techies causes an overrun. Krank gains a card because the 4th figure added to that space was a Techie.

Page 12 says "An overrun occurs when adding Raiders to a location would bring the total number of Raiders - of any color(s) - in that location to 4 or more. When a location overruns, leave 3 Raiders in the original location, and carry out the following steps...Place 1 new Raider of the same type that was to be added to the original location in each adjacent location over an open border (not over a solid-line border)."

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Second, is there any reason to not allow a leader to be sabotaged to death? If not, I presume his abilities do not activate since it is not a combat. I assume also that his abilities don't activate when he is hit by the Lightning of the Ancients.


A leader can totally be sabotaged to death, and that death grants the Slayer title and the bonus cards. Your understanding of the leaders combat abilities is correct.


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Neil Edmonds
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That's a very nice game setup you have there. Excellent photography work too. I like the backdrop on the table and the subdued lighting.
 
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David Griffin
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Thanks. I got a few things wrong in my play. The rules said radiation surges affect "tokens" but apparently he meant to include the icons on the board. Very important distinction and I paid attention to the wording. There was also the instruction to "remove THE 2 boss advance cards". I could either remove all THE cards or 2 of the 4 and I chose the former (I ALWAYS ALWAYS choose the most advantageous rules interpretation.

Not sure I killed all raiders before attacking the leader or not since I don't think that is in the manual either.

I saw one or two other typos as well. Could be the manual needed an editor.

Can't remember if the different raiders thing came up. Since the scavenge tokens turned out to need the last one, I hoovered up raiders and rolled really well so I wasn't making much progress with the leaders at first but my 3 heroes were doing a good job preventing overruns of any kind.

Not sure how I feel about the sequence of play where the bad guys get to go 3 times as often as any individual hero. I can see how it works as a scaling system for different numbers of heroes, but still annoying. Still like the game though. It is a production to set up and play though and it is SO long a game.
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Neil Edmonds
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It seems like you did a good job for your first play session.

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Not sure I killed all raiders before attacking the leader or not since I don't think that is in the manual either.


You're right. It was picked up in the version 1.1 FAQ.

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I saw one or two other typos as well. Could be the manual needed an editor.


There's 3 editors listed in the credits too, although one of them is Jason Maxwell. The cards have a lot of misspellings as well, why did Joshua/Joshuah suddenly become Josuah?

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Can't remember if the different raiders thing came up. Since the scavenge tokens turned out to need the last one, I hoovered up raiders and rolled really well so I wasn't making much progress with the leaders at first but my 3 heroes were doing a good job preventing overruns of any kind.


Preventing overruns is one of the key game mechanics - good job!

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Not sure how I feel about the sequence of play where the bad guys get to go 3 times as often as any individual hero. I can see how it works as a scaling system for different numbers of heroes, but still annoying.


Defenders of the Realm works the same way too. The hard part is the mid-and-late game war stages when 2 or 3 Darkness spreads cards get drawn after each hero turn. You can do a good job managing tainted lands or minion overruns during the hero phase only to have the work completely undone by the Darkness Spreads cards, or the situation is made worse because some area you couldn't get to suddenly gets more minions added to it. Thematically though, it fits the theme of a dire and full-fledged invasion getting underway. It reminds me a bit of Space Invaders when the aliens move really fast and start so low to the bottom of the screen it eventually becomes impossible to win.

It's one of the reasons I cite the luck aspect of the game when people ask for recommendations for DOTR or DOTLS. Minion placement isn't quite as deterministic as Pandemic, which does an admirable job of conveying the sense of contagious outbreak in a board game.
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David Griffin
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Well I played a lot of Star Trek Attack Wing with all it's "Magic-like" wording so I tend to pay attention to how the sentences are structured and sometimes it goes wrong! At any rate though I tend not to like brutally hard games so when there is a question I always go with the interpretation I like best.

It is interesting that the enemy's act phase after EVERY character turn tends to make a single hero playing somewhat feasible since you cut down on the number of enemy turns as well. Though the various heroes have different useful capabilities and they can't be everywhere at once so the game doesn't scale THAT well to low numbers of players.

I'm not fond of the fact that in certain phases you can get 2 boss movements in one player turn and 6 in a 3 player turn such that there might be no way to stop a boss before it just walks into Last Stand. Too much seems dependent on luck, though of course you can mitigate this by trying to weaken them.

I got very lucky in my game because none of the bosses moved much for a long time (which was good because the scavenge token I needed was the last one and not even on the board). Also due to a wording error in the manual when it said to remove THE 2 boss moves cards (there were 4) I had to choose to either remove all of them or 2 of the 4 and I chose all. This proved to be wrong but it also gave me the time I needed. I weakened a lot of bosses before I ever killed any of them. I didn't want to set off the 2nd and 3rd phase sequences of play without feeling I could destroy the other bosses pretty quickly. I tried to conserve my karmas for the weapon but I still needed to occasionally use the player powers. I kind of feel like that brought the game down because without the karma powers, the characters seem more like they are the same character. I like the individuality. I think there should be some other trigger for the weapon so that the karma tokens could still be used to make the heroes more individualistic.
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Neil Edmonds
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That's a very thoughtful write-up of the game.

You identified the other core mechanic, taking out the leaders/generals quickly, which can be difficult to do if the Hero card draws don't cooperate. Last Stand has some mechanics like sabotague that mitigate the bad card draws, but Defenders of the Realm can become nigh impossible with the "wrong" (already-defeated) General card draws combined with extra Darkness Spreads card draws.
 
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Matt Smith
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In scenario #1 you don't need to build the Lightning of the Ancients to win the game; it just helps. But if you spend too much time looking for the Special Artifact tokens, you could lose the game anyway.

I find there are more ways (artifacts, specials, barricades) to mitigate leader movement in this game than in DOTR.
 
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David Griffin
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Well, I kind of thought building the ancients weapon was the goal so it didn't even occur to me to try to win the game without it!

It led to what might be an unusual strategy. I worked on 2 of the leaders while hitting any cluster of minions I could to prevent overruns. I was fortunate on my choice of heroes. I had the Old man, Calendar and Rok and Roll. They were chosen at random but worked well together. And remember I was playing some rules wrong so my play was easier than it would have been.

Still I was lucky that the bosses didn't draw the cards they needed. I didn't kill the first leader for as long as I could drag it out so that I'd spend as little time in the other stages as I could. I finally hit Bama when he was at last approaching Last Stand. Then Puke because I had read in the rules that if he is the last leader, any move was a loss. Then Krank because HE was closing on Last stand. The bad thing was I hadn't weakened Krank. But Calendar Lightning'd him to a much lower health standard. Bramble was last. And since I could afford to use all my cards for her, she was pretty much vaporized.

I might not win again now that I know all the rules but I kind of liked the mechanics.
 
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