Recommend
20 
 Thumb up
 Hide
37 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Rising Sun» Forums » General

Subject: Suggested Map Revision rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Disclaimer:

I have a deep interest in Japan, but I'm by no means an authority, especially on geography, so I'll appreciate any thoughts or feedback from those who know better.


When I get excited about something as much as I'm excited about Rising Sun, I start to notice little oddities.

In this case, it's the map:



From a visual standpoint and a gameplay standpoint, I love this map. I like the visual style and I think the borders are clear.

There's some inconsistency in the region names: Shikoku, Kyushu and Hokkaido are the names of entire islands, Kansai is the name of a region, Oshu and Nagato are individual provinces, and Kyoto and Edo are specific cities.

It's as if a board game map of the USA had the following regions: Northwest, Midwest, East Coast, Texas, The Rust Belt, New York and Los Angeles.

But that's not a big deal, really. The regions are abstractions, and there's no textbook way to split 1500's Japan into 8 tidy regions. The names should be thematic and evocative, and the names "Edo" and "Kyoto" are exactly that.

My only issue is with the fact that the "Kyoto" region is to the east of the "Kansai" region. In reality, the city of Kyoto is IN the Kansai region.

So I made a revision, and I'd love to hear any opinions on it:



I've replaced "Kansai" with "Kyoto" and renamed the Kyoto region "Mino." Mino was an old province in approximately that region, which "served an important military and political role as the path to Kyoto" (Wikipedia).

Mino even hosted the Battle of Sekigahara, the last battle of the sengoku jidai, so it has an important place in samurai history.

Also, this version avoids having two "K" provinces right by each other, which may help eliminate possible confusion.

EDIT: Also, just noticed this: as a bonus, the game won't begin with the Turtle clan (the most dishonorable clan) holding Kyoto. Instead, the Turtle clan will be from Mino, and the Fox clan will be from Kyoto (they''re only slightly more honorable than the Turtle clan, but at least they're fully human).

And for the retail copy, Kyoto will start unclaimed, which seems appropriate since a major focus the sengoku jidai was controlling Kyoto.


Any thoughts?
46 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Clubb
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the revision if only to have no confusion on board locations.

Hopefully CMON will see this thread.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brett Miller
United States
Logan
UT
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I know nothing about Japanese geography. But several people have brought this up on KS.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to find under the weight of comments about bigger boxes. people asking questions that are clearly stated in the project description or in the FAQ, or wanting BR components of cross-over add-ons for other CMON games...

But the point is, you're are not the only one to make a note about this.

Personally, I wouldn't know one way or the other.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
galaxybear wrote:
Unfortunately, it's impossible to find under the weight of comments about bigger boxes.


Hahaha. Yeah. The comments section of Rising Sun is like a party line with 23,000 people on it. It's pretty hard to have a focused discussion.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MetalChef wrote:
Hopefully CMON will see this thread.


I wanted to post this to BGG first, to see what people thought (and hopefully learn if I had made a mistake).

Eventually, if I'm confident this change makes sense, I'll message CMON directly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
elac yenwod
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
galaxybear wrote:

I know nothing about Japanese geography. But several people have brought this up on KS.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to find under the weight of comments about bigger boxes. people asking questions that are clearly stated in the project description or in the FAQ, or wanting BR components of cross-over add-ons for other CMON games...

But the point is, you're are not the only one to make a note about this.

Personally, I wouldn't know one way or the other.


I believe CMON's response was that they took liberties with the map because it was a fantasized game and felt it was more important to use recognizable region names.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
elacyenwod wrote:
I believe CMON's response was that they took liberties with the map because it was a fantasized game and felt it was more important to use recognizable region names.


That makes a lot of sense, and I don't fault them for taking liberties.

But as a big fan of samurai fiction, I feel like I've heard the term "Mino" more than "Kansai." Probably because Mino was a specific province with political power, and Kansai was a broad geographic region.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taco van Vliet
Netherlands
Zoetermeer
flag msg tools
Empty
badge
What are you looking at?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
indeed, liberties are no problem.
but putting Kyoto next to Kansai is a giant eye-sore.

it rubs me the wrong way every time I look at it.
Why make such a beautiful game with a giant stain.

PLEASE CMON CHANGE THE NAME!!!
Nate gave a great suggestion. buried in the comment section on KS are some good ones as well.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dun166 wrote:
Nate gave a great suggestion. buried in the comment section on KS are some good ones as well.


Do you remember what some of the other suggestions were? I don't think I have the energy to dig through 17,000 comments.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamie Maltman
Canada
RICHMOND HILL
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kansai as the region makes complete sense and is pretty accurate. But like you said, most certainly includes Kyoto.

I spent some time in that current "Kyoto" province (and Kansai) on my honeymoon, and the central feature of that area is the Japanese Alps including Nagano, a few cities in the strip of flatter land along the south coast (Nagoya and Shizuoka), and then Hida prefecture and Takayama in the west part of that space on the board.

If you're making a map at this scale, then a regional name makes sense off the bat, so the 3 islands + Kansai should stay. But if there's no collective regional name, then naming it for a recognizable province or feature does make sense... as long as it's actually in the province.

But the play balancing of the rewards for the provinces, with Kyoto giving the most VP right now... name changes would impact that.

It's tough to abstract and make everybody happy while maintaining coherence, especially what it's a fantastical version of Japan not tied to an exact time.

I can totally understand why it would irk people though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MaltmanJ wrote:
If you're making a map at this scale, then a regional name makes sense off the bat, so the 3 islands + Kansai should stay. But if there's no collective regional name, then naming it for a recognizable province or feature does make sense... as long as it's actually in the province.


Thanks for your insight. I think if the other 4 maindland regions were uniform "regional" names, then Kansai would fit in perfectly.

Quote:
But the play balancing of the rewards for the provinces, with Kyoto giving the most VP right now... name changes would impact that.


Yeah, I don't want anything to affect the play balance, so I'd prefer only the names change, not the rewards. So in this revised version, some people might complain that Mino has a higher point reward than Kyoto.

Basically, which would bug you more?

a) Kyoto is in the wrong place on the map

b) Kyoto is NOT the highest point reward province on the map

For me, "a" would bother me more, which is why i suggested the revision.

Quote:
It's tough to abstract and make everybody happy while maintaining coherence, especially what it's a fantastical version of Japan not tied to an exact time.

I can totally understand why it would irk people though. :)


I think this perfectly sums up my thoughts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Octavius
Canada
Chilliwack
BC
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's all Greek to me. Well, Japanese I guess...

I appreciate the insight and like the changes just fine, but I suspect it's probably too late for CMON to change it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Reynolds
United States
Vermontville
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We know that CMoN reads these forums and they have made changes to their games in the past based on suggestions here, so there is certainly hope. I'm in the "wouldn't know the difference" camp, myself, but this seems like a reasonable change. It'd be cool to see it happen.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
I can understand their reasoning, for an entertainment product it might be more important to use the more recognizable names to assist with the setting.

It really is the same like a lot of other history goofs they make in entertainment, those goofs are kind of accepted.

Both are fine for me, we'll see what happens.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamie Maltman
Canada
RICHMOND HILL
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Now of course the actual shape of the islands has been significantly distorted too, to make for roughly equal sized areas with the adjacency they're looking for. So to overlook Kyoto moving a little bit isn't the craziest thing to have to do...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Renaud Verlaque
United States
Shelter Island Heights
New York
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmb
A very good suggestion that shouldn't be hard to implement even though I trust very few people would notice.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Callahan
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Eldil wrote:
dun166 wrote:
Nate gave a great suggestion. buried in the comment section on KS are some good ones as well.


Do you remember what some of the other suggestions were? I don't think I have the energy to dig through 17,000 comments.


It was suggested early on that "Hokkaido" is a name that was not in use during the feudal time period; and that it should be changed to the proper name of the time (which I don't recall).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pan Ho
msg tools
The suggestion was to rename Hokkaido to "Ezo". Hokkaido was called Ezo until 1869:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezo
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Parkes
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pangus111 wrote:
The suggestion was to rename Hokkaido to "Ezo". Hokkaido was called Ezo until 1869:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezo


Ahh. That makes sense, but it gets tricky. If you change Hokkaido to Ezo, then you've got both "Ezo" and "Edo," which is going to be confusing to some players.

So you'd need to change "Edo" to something like "Mikawa"... and now you've got "Mino" and "Mikawa" adjacent to one another.

Honestly, it might be arbitrary, but I don't have a problem with "Hokkaido." It's anachronistic, but at least it's geographically accurate. Kyoto bugs me because the city has been moved about 200 km northeast.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pan Ho
msg tools
Eldil wrote:
Ahh. That makes sense, but it gets tricky. If you change Hokkaido to Ezo, then you've got both "Ezo" and "Edo," which is going to be confusing to some players.

So you'd need to change "Edo" to something like "Mikawa"... and now you've got "Mino" and "Mikawa" adjacent to one another.

Honestly, it might be arbitrary, but I don't have a problem with "Hokkaido." It's anachronistic, but at least it's geographically accurate. Kyoto bugs me because the city has been moved about 200 km northeast.


Agreed with you. Hokkaido doesn't bother me
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A J
United States
Riverside
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pkreynolds wrote:
We know that CMoN reads these forums and they have made changes to their games in the past based on suggestions here, so there is certainly hope. I'm in the "wouldn't know the difference" camp, myself, but this seems like a reasonable change. It'd be cool to see it happen.


It would be a huge oversight for a company like CMON to not have someone regularly keep tabs on these forums for PR purposes if nothing else.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taco van Vliet
Netherlands
Zoetermeer
flag msg tools
Empty
badge
What are you looking at?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Eldil wrote:
dun166 wrote:
Nate gave a great suggestion. buried in the comment section on KS are some good ones as well.


Do you remember what some of the other suggestions were? I don't think I have the energy to dig through 17,000 comments.


yes I remember some, Chubu is the official region name currently.
in line with naming provinces for smaller areas would make Kiso or Gifu an option.

for now my personal favorite and also very flavorful would be Fuji. the mountain is even presented on the map, so what more could we want
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taco van Vliet
Netherlands
Zoetermeer
flag msg tools
Empty
badge
What are you looking at?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Eldil wrote:
MaltmanJ wrote:
If you're making a map at this scale, then a regional name makes sense off the bat, so the 3 islands + Kansai should stay. But if there's no collective regional name, then naming it for a recognizable province or feature does make sense... as long as it's actually in the province.


Thanks for your insight. I think if the other 4 maindland regions were uniform "regional" names, then Kansai would fit in perfectly.

Quote:
But the play balancing of the rewards for the provinces, with Kyoto giving the most VP right now... name changes would impact that.


Yeah, I don't want anything to affect the play balance, so I'd prefer only the names change, not the rewards. So in this revised version, some people might complain that Mino has a higher point reward than Kyoto.

Basically, which would bug you more?

a) Kyoto is in the wrong place on the map

b) Kyoto is NOT the highest point reward province on the map

For me, "a" would bother me more, which is why i suggested the revision


I would definetly only change the name. don't screw around with the point value.

not that I think the rewards are historicly based.
around 1500 the kanto area (edo on the map) was the most profitable with lots of flatland able to produce rice. so why only 2 coins?

and why does hokkaido give 2 ronin? no historical reason..

so please CMON just change the name of the "Kyoto" province. i'm fine with all the rest of the artistic freedom...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pan Ho
msg tools
Nate: Have you contacted CMON with your proposal? When you messaged them in the past, did they ever reply with something other than "your suggestion has been passed to our producers"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taco van Vliet
Netherlands
Zoetermeer
flag msg tools
Empty
badge
What are you looking at?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pangus111 wrote:
Nate: Have you contacted CMON with your proposal? When you messaged them in the past, did they ever reply with something other than "your suggestion has been passed to our producers"?


interested as well, please do tell
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.