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The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire» Forums » General

Subject: Government OP rss

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Karl Hauser
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Every time my friends and I play this game, (this is a sample space of about 10-15 times), we've learned that government building synergy vastly outplays the other two decks. The reasoning goes that government begets science, and science prevents pollution, and 0 pollution can ultimately score an extra 51 points. I can't find a way to compete with it, since the other buildings pollute, and no other deck gives you the kind of bonuses government does. So you end up with the prisoner paradox, wondering if you should spend your precious energy to make the most economic move available to you, or block the guy (or girl) who decided to focus completely on science/government.

Has anyone else had problems with this?

The final tally is probably 11-12 games to government (or most-half government) vs. 3-4 to commerce and industry.


[Edit: I realized after writing this that my hyperbole caused some confusion. When I said "all government," what I meant is "mostly government," which can include having 7 buildings, four of which are green by the end of the game. Not sure if that matters, but it might.]
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Sean Geraghty
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Are you under the false assumption that a player can only buy cards from one market for the whole game?
I ask this because of the way you describe that government has won a vast majority of the games you played. Were the other players ignoring government? If so, that's your problem right there.
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Michael Taylor
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^^^^ What he said.

I've played several times (both solo and w/ 3-4 players) and have won using all kinds of different tactics. None of them being by focusing on a single section, like government or commerce. Keeping a clean board is ideal, but not necessary to win.

Also, by saying 0 pollution scores you an *extra* 51 points, is not right. It scores you just 51 points. Its not 0 or 51, you can get any range of scores within that.

My suggestion would be to maybe look at all 9 buildings that are out there and get a couple engines going that work together. Use Industrial to get resources one turn, and then next use those resources to change into Commerce or Government actions.
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Karl Hauser
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Wow, that was quick. Thanks for the responses.

And yes, we have done exactly that. Originally, when we played this game, government ran away with it, and I thought it was a fluke. After more games where the majority of the winner's buildings are green, it began to look as though there was something about the government section that held greater advantages than the other two sections. I was winning if I pursued the Green Path, especially if I got France or West Germany, so I started experimenting.

The times people ran away with the game were when they were allowed to go all green (government.) I tried other strategies, but splitting up your empire generally means you aren't pouring resources into the area you are strongest (due to the rule that you can't activate buildings outside of the color you placed your worker into). You are able to accomplish a lot more if you are alternating buying a building and regenerating as often as possible (with 4-5 players, at least), and this is most advantageous in the government section.

Addressing pollution, I never said it was 51 points or 0 points, but the advantage gained in keeping pollution low is so great as to be something you can't ignore, and government seems to exacerbate this. It feels like an exploit in the game, but no one else seems to have experienced the same problem we have.

I appreciate the response, though. It's cool to know someone is listening, even if they disagree.
 
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Luke Laurie
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Santa Maria
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The effectiveness of every strategy in MPEE is entirely dependent on the strategies of others. If everyone is going green, the game is slowed down somewhat, which gives time for the green player to still build up something effective. If the green player is unopposed, they have easy access to what they're trying to do. But if other players push the pace with pollution, the green player's advantage can be lost through lack of productivity.

I can assure you from hundreds of plays, there's no inherent advantage to sticking to government. If there is in your group, try questioning how players are responding to the available opportunities.
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Karl Hauser
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Unfortunately I can't compete with hundreds of playthroughs, and I can't deny that there is probably player bias, AND as I look through the decks there doesn't seem to be any inherent advantage in one deck versus another.

I hear what you are saying Luke, and I understand it, but it has still been our experience that green is strongest, then industry, and finally commerce.

I will continue to watch the games, however, because I want it to be fair, and it seems like it should be. I'm just surprised that we're the only group experiencing anything like this.
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Eric Jome
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Try using the other areas to blitz for points from buildings.

All players attempting to use only one area slows the productivity of that area.

Completely clean environment wastes opportunities. If I have one and you have none, I might lose 2 or 3 points in the game compared to you.
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Karl Hauser
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So I just wanted to say that I finally beat the system of green everyone was winning with, and I did it with commerce, but MAN it was close.

I took a hint from the single player forum and only took buildings that didn't pollute, and went for commerce. Also, I was China, and we got a card early that allowed you to sacrifice a worker for a nuke die and three victory points, which was huge. There was very little competition in the commerce section, which helped, but I was still surprised at how close it was, when everyone else went for the green strategy.

Still, cool to see. Just thought I would add this.
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Andrea Cecchetti
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I think this might be due to subconscious motivations. Your group of players doesn't feel good with polluting their areas, so they tend to find solutions that would trigger several cleanups. And since CleanUp actions falls between the Govt buildings area, they tend to buy more from that kind.
 
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Scott Cantor
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nd_1969 wrote:
I think this might be due to subconscious motivations. Your group of players doesn't feel good with polluting their areas, so they tend to find solutions that would trigger several cleanups. And since CleanUp actions falls between the Govt buildings area, they tend to buy more from that kind.


I can vouch that so far my plays with others have been all govt. It's the clear advantage of the in game scoring via an unpolluted board plus no obvious advantage to the other building types.

The hard part for me is that I know you have to be willing to shift strategy since only one player is going to win with the green strategy but I can't see how to compete without it yet.
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Mikey Moo
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Honestly, my group has also found that the Government area seems to be the most valuable due to the pollution control. But that has resulted in more players trying to focus on that area of the board, which reduces the effectiveness of focusing on it due to overcrowding.

Still I hope any future expansions add cards or content that will make the other areas more appealing.
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Jacob Kuyvenhoven
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The Strategy is quite simple, and in fact I have never seen Government win a game. My game group has dissected the game, and it appears to us that Government is actually the weakest of the 3.

Industry has the largest advantage, and we have never been able to beat it (The Game is Possibly Even Broken). Due to it having every resource it will ever need (other than money) but including Energy Dice in its sector. (Thus it's important if possible to NOT take a Country that requires Money for the UN Track)

The strategy is the 1 Action then Generate Strategy. The premise here is that you gain points (build or buy dice) then generate, which clears your buildings (including your UN building) Every second turn, you will move up the UN Track, gain an End Game Scoring Tile and push the game to an early end. Any long term strategies will not be able to keep up with your pace.

This does require a short build up during the first few turns, but your engine will be running far sooner than anyone else.

First Action: Buy Black Oil Dice ( the second most powerful permanent die ) Blue is better, but limited 1 per player, so you don't have to worry that it will get stolen from you.
If you can't afford this, your first action should be to gain 1 Steel
*Note you should pay and move up on your UN Track with your first action.

Second Action: One of these - Oil Die / Steel / Building
When buying a building, try to gain one that gives you steel and don't be afraid to grab ones that give radiation, as it will speed up the game, limiting time for your opponents.

Third Action: Generate - Gain End Game Scoring Tile

Fourth Action: Repeat Above.

Your Goal is to get to the point where your 1 action on your turn is to buy a Die / Building and run your entire chain of Industry buildings & UN Building. Then Generate.

End Game you should have 5 End Scoring Tiles, Maxed UN Track, 5 Dice & 5-10 Buildings.

*Note there is a building in Industry that allows you to gain dice, so you can focus on Buying Buildings for points.

In your final 1-2 Turns it's a good idea to try some clean up using the Government Main Board Action.

Good Luck
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Troy Pollex
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My friend has won the game both times that he has played using only government cards. He had 4 dice, loaded up on energy and still managed to beat 2 other players with just two workers(we had the event where you can discard a worker for a dice). He would play one worker activate all of his government cards and then generate next turn. He had no pollution and did nothing on the UN track.
 
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Jacob Kuyvenhoven
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tpollex wrote:
My friend has won the game both times that he has played using only government cards. He had 4 dice, loaded up on energy and still managed to beat 2 other players with just two workers(we had the event where you can discard a worker for a dice). He would play one worker activate all of his government cards and then generate next turn. He had no pollution and did nothing on the UN track.


Curious to know the score of that game & number to rounds.

Our games usually went 12-15 rounds, Industry would win with 110-125 points every game
 
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Clayton Weaver
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Korsheth wrote:
When buying a building, try to gain one that gives you steel and don't be afraid to grab ones that give radiation, as it will speed up the game, limiting time for your opponents.[/u]
Does speeding up the game actually help this strategy? One would think speeding up the game helps the players who aren't polluting because they'll be getting points with the clean board when the Events come down and they'll be thankful to end the game quicker with their less efficient engines.

I also think money is a big deal. The other players can use their money to easily take the best structures off the board unless they are getting blocked.

I also find that the Dice board spot is generally the most contested spot on the board so generally speaking the Industry player might run into players more than someone with a different strategy. If this direction ends up being the strongest strategy then it should also be the most contested.
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Andrea Cecchetti
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Well. All these considerations, imho, are demonstrating that there is no bug or unbalancement in this game. those you mentioned seems to be very effective strategies, so more strategies to win means that the game is ok.
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Jacob Kuyvenhoven
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Clayton7 wrote:
Korsheth wrote:
When buying a building, try to gain one that gives you steel and don't be afraid to grab ones that give radiation, as it will speed up the game, limiting time for your opponents.[/u]
Does speeding up the game actually help this strategy? One would think speeding up the game helps the players who aren't polluting because they'll be getting points with the clean board when the Events come down and they'll be thankful to end the game quicker with their less efficient engines.

I also think money is a big deal. The other players can use their money to easily take the best structures off the board unless they are getting blocked.

I also find that the Dice board spot is generally the most contested spot on the board so generally speaking the Industry player might run into players more than someone with a different strategy. If this direction ends up being the strongest strategy then it should also be the most contested.


Hey Clayton,
Sorry to get back to you so late, Speeding up the game does help you, as it forces the hands of your opponents. They don't have time to doddle around while you end the game, as all the other factions are late game point savvy. By speeding up, you prevent them from gaining big points, balancing out the points you lose by taking pollution.

Anyone spending time to buy cards you want with their money is slowing down their engine, thus helping you.

The dice spot IS contested, but remember, you only need to take ONE action with this strategy. So spending 2-4 energy with a worker is generally not a problem. It only means you may not get to trigger all your buildings that turn. Along with that though, the fact that you generally want Dice early game, thus don't have buildings to activate in the first place. If you can't get a Dice, buy a new building instead.

Cheers
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Ka Man Chan
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How are you scoring 51 on zero pollution? The columns and spaces add up to 21.
 
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Sean Geraghty
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KAuss wrote:
How are you scoring 51 on zero pollution? The columns and spaces add up to 21.

I assume the OP means they scored an additional 5 points for each of the six global impact cards (30 points) to get to 51 points off of zero pollution.
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