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Subject: Can you roll two "3 of a kind" for VP? rss

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Steven Strayer
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I can't seem to find any answer to this in the rules (1st or 2nd Edition)... it seems pretty straight forward, but there's no mention of this, so I'm not sure.

I know how scoring works and it's explained thoroughly on the "roll 3-of-a-kind of numbers 1, 2 or 3, to score that, plus one for each identical roll of that number)... but since we roll SIX dice, it's possible to roll two separate "3 of a kinds".

If out of my six dice I roll three 3's and three 2's, do I get five victory points for that? Or do I only get credit for one type of "3-of-a-kind"?

I have never found mention of this very real possible outcome (it happened in our first game, and everyone was debating if that was a valid roll to score 5 VPs from that).

What's the answer for this, and why is this outcome not covered in either edition rules of the game?
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Dennis de Vries
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I believe the rule is, you have to have a 3 of a kind, after that you get 1 VP extra per same number die. When you roll 3x 3 and 3x 2, I guess you want to count the highest, which is 3x 3 (3 VPs).

If you roll 6x 3, you'll get 6 VPs, so in a way it evens out. But the basic rule is, in my opinion, just one set of numbers count. Just reroll the 3x 2 to get more 3s.
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Adam Hostetler
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I have nothing to back it up, but I would think six 3s would count as one three of a kind +one for each additional 3 for a total of 6 points. I would think three 3s and three 2s would score 5 victory points (3 for the triple 3s and 2 for the triple 2s).
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Robert Clevidence
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Menghini wrote:
I believe the rule is, you have to have a 3 of a kind, after that you get 1 VP extra per same number die. When you roll 3x 3 and 3x 2, I guess you want to count the highest, which is 3x 3 (3 VPs).


Is this a belief based on evidence? I skimmed my 1st Edition rule book and didn't find anything supporting one interpretation over the other. As far as I can tell, it comes down to a house rule at this point.
 
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Steven Packard
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Clevider wrote:
Menghini wrote:
I believe the rule is, you have to have a 3 of a kind, after that you get 1 VP extra per same number die. When you roll 3x 3 and 3x 2, I guess you want to count the highest, which is 3x 3 (3 VPs).


Is this a belief based on evidence? I skimmed my 1st Edition rule book and didn't find anything supporting one interpretation over the other. As far as I can tell, it comes down to a house rule at this point.


With all due respect to all who have responded so far, I can't think of any reason to interpret it any other way than, yes, you count all the VP's.

In other words, if you roll six 3's, that's 3 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6.

If you roll three 3's and three 2's, that's 3 + 2 = 5.

My reasoning? Say your final roll is three 2's, two Energy, one Attack.

I think we'd all agree that that results in scoring 2 VP's, taking 2 Energy cubes, and making 1 Attack. All the dice that can be used are used.

So if you roll two sets of triplets, why wouldn't you score VP's for the first set and VP's for the second one?

Again, no offense to the prior comments (I fear my written tone seems harsh, but that doesn't correctly convey how I feel; maybe an emoticon will help: meeple ), but this seems straightforward to me.



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Günter Immeyer
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I think Adam's "belief" is quite well supported by the rules:

rules wrote:
If a triple 1, 2, or 3 is rolled, a Monster scores that many Victory Points [...].

and

rules wrote:
Each additional roll of that type is worth 1 extra [VP]

So in case someone rolls three "3s" and three "2s", that's a crystal clear 5 VP to me. Why? Simply check the rule:

Has a triple "1" been rolled? NO => don't score 1 VP
Has a triple "2" been rolled? YES => score 2 VP
Has a triple "3" been rolled? YES => score 3 VP
Is there any additional roll of one of "those" types? NO => don't score any extra VP

=> "score 2" AND "score 3" is definitely a "score 5" in my book! laugh

And whether you want to interpret six "3s" as two separate sets of three "3s" is irrelevant, as that would score 6 VP either way:

- one set of "3s" = 3 VP, plus 3 additional VPs per "3" = 6 VP
- two sets of "3s" = 3 VP x 2 = 6 VP

(I own the 1st edition of the game, btw)
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Teeka
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Miraculix wrote:
whether you want to interpret six "3s" as two separate sets of three "3s" is irrelevant, as that would score 6 VP either way:

- one set of "3s" = 3 VP, plus 3 additional VPs per "3" = 6 VP
- two sets of "3s" = 3 VP x 2 = 6 VP

True, but for 1's and 2's it does matter.

If you roll all 1's, does that mean 1VP +3 additional = 4,
or 2 triplets so 1 + 1 = 2?

If you roll all 2's, does that mean 2VP +3 additional = 5,
or 2 triplets so 2 + 2 = 4?

This does again boil down to "do you count all available triplets, or just one + any bonus points?" which was the original question.


If you in fact count all available triplets, then rolling 5x 1 is actually better than 6x 1.
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Brodie
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We've always played it that if you roll three 3's and three 2's, that would be 5 points.

If you rolled six 2's, that would be 5 points (and six 1's would be 4 points).

Just based strictly off the rules, roll three of the same number is worth that many points, and each additional same number is worth one.
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Michael Tyree
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I would think it pretty clear that each additional roll of that type is worth one extra point. Once you've got a triple (1/2/3), score (1/2/3). Then, each additional (1/2/3) gives one additional VP.
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Parker McParker
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Teeka wrote:
Miraculix wrote:
whether you want to interpret six "3s" as two separate sets of three "3s" is irrelevant, as that would score 6 VP either way:

- one set of "3s" = 3 VP, plus 3 additional VPs per "3" = 6 VP
- two sets of "3s" = 3 VP x 2 = 6 VP

True, but for 1's and 2's it does matter.

If you roll all 1's, does that mean 1VP +3 additional = 4,
or 2 triplets so 1 + 1 = 2?

If you roll all 2's, does that mean 2VP +3 additional = 5,
or 2 triplets so 2 + 2 = 4?

This does again boil down to "do you count all available triplets, or just one + any bonus points?" which was the original question.


If you in fact count all available triplets, then rolling 5x 1 is actually better than 6x 1.


5 1s are worth 5 points (three for the triplet and an extra one for each extra 1).
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.
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Teeka
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MLBath wrote:
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.

So, if you roll 333-222 you do count all available triplets, but if you roll 111-111 you don't count all available triplets?
 
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Cornixt
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Teeka wrote:
MLBath wrote:
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.

So, if you roll 333-222 you do count all available triplets, but if you roll 111-111 you don't count all available triplets?

111111 is not two triplets, it's one sextuplet.
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Teeka
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cornixt wrote:
Teeka wrote:
MLBath wrote:
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.

So, if you roll 333-222 you do count all available triplets, but if you roll 111-111 you don't count all available triplets?

111111 is not two triplets, it's one sextuplet.

But, the game doesn't define anything except triplets. I mean, 3333xx is not a quartet either, but a 'triplet + 1'.


(Please note I'm genuinely trying to understand, my apologies if my posts come across wrong.)
 
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Trevor S.
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Teeka wrote:
cornixt wrote:
Teeka wrote:
MLBath wrote:
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.

So, if you roll 333-222 you do count all available triplets, but if you roll 111-111 you don't count all available triplets?

111111 is not two triplets, it's one sextuplet.

But, the game doesn't define anything except triplets. I mean, 3333xx is not a quartet either, but a 'triplet + 1'.


(Please note I'm genuinely trying to understand, my apologies if my posts come across wrong.)


Yes, it does - it states that every extra copy of a number that you have scored a triple of is worth one additional point, with the caveat that you don't score any die twice.
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Adam Hostetler
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MLBath wrote:


5 1s are worth 5 points (three for the triplet and an extra one for each extra 1).
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.


How are 6 1s worth 6 points. 6 ones are only worth 4 points. 1 for the 3 of a kind and one more for each of the three additional.
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Parker McParker
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slydog75 wrote:
MLBath wrote:


5 1s are worth 5 points (three for the triplet and an extra one for each extra 1).
You don't count all available triplets.
6 1s are worth 6 points.


How are 6 1s worth 6 points. 6 ones are only worth 4 points. 1 for the 3 of a kind and one more for each of the three additional.


You're right. I'm wrong. I'm a numpty and am very sorry for confusing what should have been a straightforward discussion!
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I almost didn't bother coming to this thread as I figured someone surely would have answered simply...

YES

Thank you for being frank Steven.
Nothing in the English rules as written (English 1st ed.) excludes scoring a second triplet. The rules elaborate on how to score numbers rolled, and the only restriction to scoring a particular number is that you must have at least 3 of a kind. I disagree that the rules support the argument that ONLY one set of numbers can score on a turn...at all. This is definitely being read into the text. No need to house rule nor complicate things here. 3 of a kind is 3 of a kind.
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Adam Hostetler
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MLBath wrote:


You're right. I'm wrong. I'm a numpty and am very sorry for confusing what should have been a straightforward discussion!

Been there done that! No worries
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Steven Strayer
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dbolyard wrote:
I almost didn't bother coming to this thread as I figured someone surely would have answered simply...

YES

Thank you for being frank Steven.
Nothing in the English rules as written (English 1st ed.) excludes scoring a second triplet. The rules elaborate on how to score numbers rolled, and the only restriction to scoring a particular number is that you must have at least 3 of a kind. I disagree that the rules support the argument that ONLY one set of numbers can score on a turn...at all. This is definitely being read into the text. No need to house rule nor complicate things here. 3 of a kind is 3 of a kind.


TY all for the answers... and yes, I almost overthought this since it never mentioned anything about having two 3-of-a-kinds in the rules... I find it odd as much detail as it goes into scoring that this possibility is not addressed, even in the 2nd edition rules that were supposed to clarify questions about the rules.
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Teeka
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Wolfshanze wrote:
TY all for the answers... and yes, I almost overthought this since it never mentioned anything about having two 3-of-a-kinds in the rules...

Me too.

I don't think it has ever happened in our group yet, as we usually go for icons first.
And we would've actually played it in the way that we should (count both 3x2 and 3x3; 6x1=4)...but then this thread got me all confused. meeple
 
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Peter Bakija
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Clevider wrote:
Is this a belief based on evidence? I skimmed my 1st Edition rule book and didn't find anything supporting one interpretation over the other. As far as I can tell, it comes down to a house rule at this point.


Thee doesn't need to be anything other than the rules as written and math.

If you roll 3x3 you get 3 points. If you roll 3x3 and also 3x3, you get 6 points either way you want to look at it (3x3 for 3 and then 3 for 3 extra 3's; or 3x3 for 3 twice), so it doesn't matter.

In any other situation, counting the extra numbers for +1 each is superior to counting them as another set of 3 (i.e. if you roll 6x2's, you get 2 points for rolling 3x2, and then 3 more points for 3 extra 2's, which is 5 points, instead of 4 points for 3x2 twice).

If you roll 3x3 and 3x2? that is 3 and 2 points for 5.

There is nothing to interpret here.
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Robert Clevidence
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bakija wrote:
Clevider wrote:
Is this a belief based on evidence? I skimmed my 1st Edition rule book and didn't find anything supporting one interpretation over the other. As far as I can tell, it comes down to a house rule at this point.


<snip>
If you roll 3x3 and 3x2? that is 3 and 2 points for 5.

There is nothing to interpret here.


This is also how I play. I thought the op was asking about an official ruling. The consensus seems to be that it's allowed since the book doesn't say one way or the other. I'm fine with that; my question was only whether it was just a feeling or if he had a specific reason for his thinking. I haven't read the backlog of rules threads here, for example, and I don't have the 2nd Ed. (which I understand has clarified rules).
 
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Steven Strayer
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Clevider wrote:
I thought the op was asking about an official ruling. The consensus seems to be that it's allowed since the book doesn't say one way or the other. I'm fine with that; my question was only whether it was just a feeling or if he had a specific reason for his thinking. I haven't read the backlog of rules threads here, for example, and I don't have the 2nd Ed. (which I understand has clarified rules).


I was asking if there was something "official" somewhere on this... it's 2017, and I'm new to the game... I didn't feel like looking back over 5 years of clarifications. I have the 2nd edition of the game (and have seen the 1st edition rules as well), and despite the 2nd edition claiming to clarify the rules better than 1st edition, this particular rule (or possible outcome) is not covered in the 2nd edition rules either.

Bottom line, I was just asking if I had missed something official... apparently I have not missed anything official, but I had interpreted the rule the same as the consensus here (two 3-of-a-kind do count for VP)... I just wanted veterans of the game to basically tell me what I had come to believe the rules had meant.
 
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Peter Bakija
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Wolfshanze wrote:
Bottom line, I was just asking if I had missed something official... apparently I have not missed anything official, but I had interpreted the rule the same as the consensus here (two 3-of-a-kind do count for VP)... I just wanted veterans of the game to basically tell me what I had come to believe the rules had meant.


Sure. But, well, there isn't an official ruling or anything as there doesn't need to be. The rules as written are pretty clear on the subject. So you didn't miss anything official. The rules are clear enough in this instance :-)
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Troy Spicer
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This came up last night playing, with a 60 second rule scan (3x2's 3x3's).

My logic was(is):

Rule 2 states you must resolve ALL dice. (restricting to 3 points violates resolving all dice)
You need 3 of a kind to score VPs.

Rules do not have any special exceptions, or any limiting language for a single 3 of a kind.

5 points.

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