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Subject: No Shuffling rss

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Klaus Gunther Herzog
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Figured a way to remove some tediousness fron San Juan, streamline a bit of the maintenance chores (shuffling) to speed things up, and possibly add a bit in the way of strategic choices at the same time...

1. Have TWO draw stacks (of equal size) and two discard piles. Ideally, have cards trays for this, marked DRAW and DISCARD.

2. Players may CHOOSE which stack to draw from, and also which pile to discard to.

3. When a draw stack is depleted, the current governor chooses one discard pile to become a new draw deck. This is NOT SHUFFLED.

4. Repeat as needed.
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Jonathan Morton
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Are you saying that the shuffling of the discards when the deck cycles is tedious? A typical 2-player game of San Juan has only 1 re-shuffling, 3 or 4 player 2 re-shufflings. If that qualifies as tedious for you, you must find most card games unbearable.
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Thomas Brendel
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Given the sporadic way cards are drawn and discarded in this game, it's probably sufficient to just cut the discard pile. I feel like the choices you've added are mostly not going to be relevant, while encouraging the players to overthink the most basic actions so that maybe they can eventually draw a known card.
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Darin Bolyard
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In all fairness, it's a fat deck...more like two or three decks--not particularly easy to shuffle all at once. Anything to shave a minute while keeping things alive can't hurt. It's an interesting idea. I'll probably try it.
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Darin Bolyard
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Squidd wrote:
Given the sporadic way cards are drawn and discarded in this game, it's probably sufficient to just cut the discard pile. I feel like the choices you've added are mostly not going to be relevant, while encouraging the players to overthink the most basic actions so that maybe they can eventually draw a known card.

To give the OP a little credit, add8ng a way to gain knowledge of the drawdeck is at least a little interesting. Imagine throwing all the cards you may want to build later into one discard pile while throwing cards you wouldn't want to build into the other. Furthermore, if you're watching your opponent, you can be mindful of where you're dropping cards beneficial to him/her as well. It's still just chance as to who will actually choose which discard becomes the new draw deck, but you'll have some knowledge about it either way.

As for shuffling vs. cutting, I disagree that merely cutting would "cut it." I'm aware of all the cards I've spent from my hand throughout the game. Shuffling is going to reset the deck more effectively than just cutting. And I'm probably anal enough to shuffle the OP's new draw deck anyway.
 
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Lars Wagner Hansen
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Cards are supposed to be discarded face down, so you have no knowledge of which cards your opponents have discarded into a particular discard pile, and thus your knowledge of which discard pile to choose is mostly irrelevant.
 
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Darin Bolyard
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This is the "Variants" forum. Ideas presented here break away from what you're supposed to do.
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Klaus Gunther Herzog
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I find it amazing how ready people are to dump on an idea without bothering to actualy try it. What will you do for an encore? I know, why not head over to RottenTomatoes.com and do a review of a movie you've never watched.

For the record, this has been playtested before I posted here, with San Juan fans who have now adopted it as their new way to play.

If it doesn't sound appealing to you, so what. I'm not forcing it down your throat. Sheesh.
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Peter Strait
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I guess the question is, if you've got a face-down stack of discards, why not give it a quick riffle-and-cut? I agree it likely doesn't need it, though that seems to be the question folks have.

I do like the idea of splitting the draw and discard stacks in two just for manageability, and can see some strategy of discarding certain cards to one stack and others to the other (mitigated in larger games by the noise of others doing the same).
 
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Florian Kalenda
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I don't think anyone was outright dismissing your idea, just giving their thoughts. And maybe you should't have called San Juan tedious. ninja
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Spencer C
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Squidd wrote:
Given the sporadic way cards are drawn and discarded in this game, it's probably sufficient to just cut the discard pile. I feel like the choices you've added are mostly not going to be relevant, while encouraging the players to overthink the most basic actions so that maybe they can eventually draw a known card.


I don't know. I find one of the benefits of SJ over RftG is the smaller size of the deck allows for precisely this sort of deck manipulation. If I draw an early guild hall, I can use it as payment and know that it's in the discard until the reshuffling, then I can search through the deck to find it. This is already a strength of San Juan's design, and making this aspect stronger doesn't seem like it's necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, I'm not at all certain why this variant needs *two* draw/discard piles. Surely you could do the same thing but just flip over the discard pile?
 
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UanarchyK wrote:
Squidd wrote:
Given the sporadic way cards are drawn and discarded in this game, it's probably sufficient to just cut the discard pile. I feel like the choices you've added are mostly not going to be relevant, while encouraging the players to overthink the most basic actions so that maybe they can eventually draw a known card.


I don't know. I find one of the benefits of SJ over RftG is the smaller size of the deck allows for precisely this sort of deck manipulation. If I draw an early guild hall, I can use it as payment and know that it's in the discard until the reshuffling, then I can search through the deck to find it. This is already a strength of San Juan's design, and making this aspect stronger doesn't seem like it's necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, I'm not at all certain why this variant needs *two* draw/discard piles. Surely you could do the same thing but just flip over the discard pile?


That's why it helps to bury such cards underneath a Chapel
 
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Spencer C
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ackmondual wrote:
UanarchyK wrote:
Squidd wrote:
Given the sporadic way cards are drawn and discarded in this game, it's probably sufficient to just cut the discard pile. I feel like the choices you've added are mostly not going to be relevant, while encouraging the players to overthink the most basic actions so that maybe they can eventually draw a known card.


I don't know. I find one of the benefits of SJ over RftG is the smaller size of the deck allows for precisely this sort of deck manipulation. If I draw an early guild hall, I can use it as payment and know that it's in the discard until the reshuffling, then I can search through the deck to find it. This is already a strength of San Juan's design, and making this aspect stronger doesn't seem like it's necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, I'm not at all certain why this variant needs *two* draw/discard piles. Surely you could do the same thing but just flip over the discard pile?


That's why it helps to bury such cards underneath a Chapel


Chapels are good for denying your opponent a card. They unfortunately deny you the card, too. For something you may want later, but not right now, you gotta discard.
 
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Darin Bolyard
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The bank does a fair job of that too, though since it's a one-time, as many cards as you like thing, I throw whatever hoard of cards I can underneath it near the end.
 
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MATTHEW SPRING
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I like it.

I've just sleeved all the cards, which makes shuffling them a bit of a pain.
 
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chad winters
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I'm not down for any variant that makes things much more difficult than just playing as intended. As for the OP saying about many people adopting this style ....... well whatever , I just don't see it.
 
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