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Subject: Is a Hand of Cards Different than a Deck of Cards? rss

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Pete
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Team D20 wrote:
Earlier today, I was in a mild debate on Facebook about the game Concordia. All of us involved believe it was a good game, but one individual had a stark disagreement with me when I pointed out it isn't a deckbuilding game, but rather a hand-building game as all cards go into your hand and there's no deck. I pointed out that there simply is no deck in the game to which he disagreed and tried to say there is no difference between a hand of cards and a deck of cards so your hand is your deck. So everyone feel free to weigh in. Do you think there is a difference between cards being part of a deck and being part of a hand?
You might be accused of splitting hairs, but I would say you're technically correct.

Pete (hasn't played the game yet)
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In terms of a gamespace, a hand and a deck are two different things, yes.

In terms of classifying games, one might say that a "handbuilding" game is a subset of the class of "deckbuilding" games.
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Team D20 wrote:
Earlier today, I was in a mild debate on Facebook about the game Concordia. All of us involved believe it was a good game, but one individual had a stark disagreement with me when I pointed out it isn't a deckbuilding game, but rather a hand-building game as all cards go into your hand and there's no deck.
The cards go into a discard pile as you play them. At which point there's a difference between your deck and your hand. The cards that are in your hand are playable. But you're only holding a subset of your deck at that point as the cards that are in the discard pile are not in your hand nor are they playable until you Tribune and recover them.

If someone asked you how many cards you had left in your hand (perhaps to determine how likely you were to take the Tribune action soon) you certainly wouldn't count the card in your discard pile as being part of your hand of cards.
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Warren Fitzpatrick
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The hand is what you, ya know, hold in your hand. The deck is what you draw from. The discard is where you put cards after they've went from the deck, to your hand, and then out of your hand.

And I probably need to call it a day.
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Team D20 wrote:
Earlier today, I was in a mild debate on Facebook about the game Concordia. All of us involved believe it was a good game, but one individual had a stark disagreement with me when I pointed out it isn't a deckbuilding game, but rather a hand-building game as all cards go into your hand and there's no deck. I pointed out that there simply is no deck in the game to which he disagreed and tried to say there is no difference between a hand of cards and a deck of cards so your hand is your deck. So everyone feel free to weigh in. Do you think there is a difference between cards being part of a deck and being part of a hand?
IMO, a deck of cards is the group of cards from which you draw cards from (and usually placed into a hand or a market of some type), the "hand of cards" is what you play cards out of.

Using the above, hand is usually smaller than the deck, but I guess could actually be the same size as the deck, if the hand included all the cards in the deck. in which case, the hand and the deck are the same.

I've not played Concordia, but if I understand the OP, I think the term deckbuilder still applies..
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Franz Kafka
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Try using the phrase "degenerate deckbuilder" instead.
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Bryan Thunkd
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warrenfitz45 wrote:
The deck is what you draw from.
glouie wrote:
IMO, a deck of cards is the group of cards from which you draw cards from
For people who haven't played Concordia, the issue that's going to be confusing is that you don't have a draw deck. You start with a hand of cards and you play them to a discard pile. When you play your Tribune card you recover all your cards from the discard pile. There's never a time you draw from a deck. So you should avoid using a draw deck as an example here.
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Team D20 wrote:
I pointed out that there simply is no deck in the game
Since this is a thread about pedantic terminology, I will note that this is false: in fact, there is the shuffled deck from which you draw new replacement cards when cards are bought from the track with a Senator or Consul action.
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Bryan Thunkd
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According to Merriam-Webster a deck is "a pack of playing cards". Which led me to look up pack, which is defined as " a group or pile of related objects".

A hand is defined as "the cards or pieces held by a player".

From that perspective I think you need "deck" to describe all the cards you own in Concordia, as hand only covers the ones you are currently holding.

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For my mind Hand management and Deck Building are two different mechanics.

A deck builder also has hand management in it, but it's different to the act of building a deck.

Can you add acquire extra cards for your discard pile in concordia?
 
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Benj Davis
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They're absolutely different things.
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So I guess if I get to a point in Dominion where I can draw my entire deck every turn, then it has become a Hand Building game at that point?
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Thunkd wrote:
According to Merriam-Webster a deck is "a pack of playing cards". Which led me to look up pack, which is defined as " a group or pile of related objects".

A hand is defined as "the cards or pieces held by a player".

From that perspective I think you need "deck" to describe all the cards you own in Concordia, as hand only covers the ones you are currently holding.
No that is precisely what makes Concordia not a deck building game. The fact that individual players do not have a deck of cards, just a hand of cards and a discard/played pile.

A "deck" of cards can mean a "pack" or a "stack" (and very frequently, especially coming from traditional card games, these are the same thing, and there is only one in a game).
A "pack" is the entire group of cards (including any cards which start in player's "hands" of cards).
A "stack" is a pile of cards which are drawn from.
Many, more current games, also have a "display" of cards, for example in both Ticket to Ride and Concordia, cards are drawn from the "deck" (i.e., "stack") to a "display".

Concordia and Lewis & Clark are just Hand Management games, not deck building games.

The only difference between the Hand Management of Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand.
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euronoob wrote:
In terms of a gamespace, a hand and a deck are two different things, yes.

In terms of classifying games, one might say that a "handbuilding" game is a subset of the class of "deckbuilding" games.
QFT

The super pedandic way of putting it is "hand building" is a subgenre of "deck / pool building." They share some many related concepts and I think it's worth talking about all games where you continually add to your pool of options, no matter how access those options. Concordia, Grifters, Orleans, and Star Realms all share some similarities, and I think from a taxonomic perspective it's valuable to identify those similarities and also to identify the differences. It's similarly useful to identify both the similarities and differences from both game design and player experience perspectives as well.

In other words, you're both right: it's similar to deckbuilding games like Star Realms or Dominion in important ways, but ALSO it's different from them in important ways.
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Donkler wrote:
So I guess if I get to a point in Dominion where I can draw my entire deck every turn, then it has become a Hand Building game at that point?
That is different, you built your deck into something that is drawn every time. at no point in concordia do you have a personal draw deck. You simply always have what is left in your hand.
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I think there is a clear difference between "hand" of cards and "deck" of cards. I think if you asked the majority of people to point to the deck in poker, they would point to the stack of cards that have yet to be dealt, not to the cards in the players' hands.

I think there are three card states in many card games. The "deck" is the cards that are sitting in a stack, face down and are not yet playable, but you could eventually draw from. Your "hand" are the cards in your hand that you are available to you to play and there is the "discard pile," which represents cards that you played or discarded already. Often the discard pile can be shuffled into the current deck or a new deck, but many games contain these three stages of card state. This seems like the natural understanding of these words. In some ways, this seems similar to the three bowls of power in Terra Mystica.

If we go by those terms, then I agree that, aside from the cards that come out on the track as mentioned by russ, that there is no "deck" in the traditional sense of the word in Concordia. There is a "hand" and a "discard pile."
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Donkler wrote:
So I guess if I get to a point in Dominion where I can draw my entire deck every turn, then it has become a Hand Building game at that point?
No, because even if you get to the point where your entire deck is less than your hand size, game play still allows you to purchase more cards, turn by turn, until there is a point when you actually have a deck to draw from. You will never have your own deck to draw from in Concordia or similar games.

You can play Dominion with certain tableaus in such a way that you can eventually make the game just a "Hand Management" game for yourself, but that play style is not similarly imposed on other players, and does not make the game a Hand Management game.

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tuckerotl wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
According to Merriam-Webster a deck is "a pack of playing cards". Which led me to look up pack, which is defined as " a group or pile of related objects".

A hand is defined as "the cards or pieces held by a player".

From that perspective I think you need "deck" to describe all the cards you own in Concordia, as hand only covers the ones you are currently holding.
No that is precisely what makes Concordia not a deck building game. The fact that individual players do not have a deck of cards, just a hand of cards and a discard/played pile.

A "deck" of cards can mean a "pack" or a "stack" (and very frequently, especially coming from traditional card games, these are the same thing, and there is only one in a game).
A "pack" is the entire group of cards (including any cards which start in player's "hands" of cards).
A "stack" is a pile of cards which are drawn from.
Many, more current games, also have a "display" of cards, for example in both Ticket to Ride and Concordia, cards are drawn from the "deck" (i.e., "stack") to a "display".

Concordia and Lewis & Clark are just Hand Management games, not deck building games.

The only difference between the Hand Management of Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand.
Pfft, you may as well say that the only difference between Hero Realms and M:tG, is that Hero Realms has game play which allows you to add cards to your deck. That "adding of cards to your ____," the way the you evolve your future options with your current choices, is the WHOLE POINT of a deck/pool building game.
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Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
euronoob wrote:
In terms of a gamespace, a hand and a deck are two different things, yes.

In terms of classifying games, one might say that a "handbuilding" game is a subset of the class of "deckbuilding" games.
QFT

The super pedandic way of putting it is "hand building" is a subgenre of "deck / pool building."
Not really, it is much more akin to (especially in similarity of play) to Tableau Building.
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oneiric wrote:
Hand and deck do have different meanings.

But Concordia is still a deck-building game. The trick? The maximum size of your hand at any given time is the number of cards in your deck.
There's also no rule for automatically drawing cards.
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tuckerotl wrote:
Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
euronoob wrote:
In terms of a gamespace, a hand and a deck are two different things, yes.

In terms of classifying games, one might say that a "handbuilding" game is a subset of the class of "deckbuilding" games.
QFT

The super pedandic way of putting it is "hand building" is a subgenre of "deck / pool building."
Not really, it is much more akin to (especially in similarity of play) to Tableau Building.
I think of Tableau Building as building a collection of things that are always-on or activate via triggers, whereas Deck/Pool Building is building a collection of things that you only sometimes have access to. If there were no Tribune card and you could play the same card every turn, I would 100% agree that it's a Tableau Building game.

I do think it's fair to say they're related, though. If Ascension and Star Realms are the same Genus as Randomized Shared Offer Deck Building Games, and they share a Family with Dominion as Deck Building Games, which all share an Order with Orleans as Randomized-Pool Deck/Pool Building games, which all share a Class with Concordia as Deck/Pool Building Games, those all would share a Phylum with Tableau Building games.
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Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
tuckerotl wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
According to Merriam-Webster a deck is "a pack of playing cards". Which led me to look up pack, which is defined as " a group or pile of related objects".

A hand is defined as "the cards or pieces held by a player".

From that perspective I think you need "deck" to describe all the cards you own in Concordia, as hand only covers the ones you are currently holding.
No that is precisely what makes Concordia not a deck building game. The fact that individual players do not have a deck of cards, just a hand of cards and a discard/played pile.

A "deck" of cards can mean a "pack" or a "stack" (and very frequently, especially coming from traditional card games, these are the same thing, and there is only one in a game).
A "pack" is the entire group of cards (including any cards which start in player's "hands" of cards).
A "stack" is a pile of cards which are drawn from.
Many, more current games, also have a "display" of cards, for example in both Ticket to Ride and Concordia, cards are drawn from the "deck" (i.e., "stack") to a "display".

Concordia and Lewis & Clark are just Hand Management games, not deck building games.

The only difference between the Hand Management of Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand.
Pfft, you may as well say that the only difference between Hero Realms and M:tG, is that Hero Realms has game play which allows you to add cards to your deck.
Nice Straw Man argument you have there.
I did not say that "The only difference between Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand."
I said that "The only difference between the Hand Management of Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand."
Concordia, Witch of Salem and other games with Hand Management all have several other game play mechansims which differentiate them from each other.

M:tG has deck construction before the game; Hero Realms does not.
M:tG has 5 main currencies in the game (and a generic version of those 5 and then three sub currencies), any number of which may or may not be in a given player's deck at any point before or during the game; Hero Realms has three main currencies, of which two will be in each player's deck before the game, and at least 1 will always be in each player's deck.
M:tG only permits you to play 1 land (the main source of mana - the above mentioned currencies) on any given turn; Hero Realms lets you play any and all cards in hand and that you are permitted to draw during your turn.
M:tG has most cards stay in play (until removed by one of the players), including the aforementioned lands; Hero Realms has all cards from a given turn, played or not, discarded.
In M:tG if a given player runs out of cards to draw from their deck, that player loses; in Hero Realms if a given player runs out of cards to draw from their deck, they shuffle their discard pile to form a new deck.

All of these things affect the difference in Hand Management between M:tG and Hero Realms. To state that your straw man is anywhere near similar to my argument is asinine.

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
That "adding of cards to your ____," the way the you evolve your future options with your current choices, is the WHOLE POINT of a deck/pool building game.
You can "evolve your future options with your current choices" in a great many types of different games. You can buy/build buildings in Kingsburg which might provide re-rolls or other alterations of die results in future turns. Kingsburg is not a deck building game.

In 4X games like Clash of Cultures, Through the Ages, and Civilization you can get techs which vastly change your "future options"; none of these are deck building games.

The "WHOLE POINT" of deck building games is to alter the likely range of available options (given that initial options for any given turn will be a [likely random] subset of a player's total possible options). In hand management games like Concordia, a player always knows exactly what the range of options will be for their next turn based what they play this turn, and knows exactly which play they will need to make to make their entire set of options available to them next turn.

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
I think of Tableau Building as building a collection of things that are always-on or activate via triggers,
You mean like Ora et Labora, where the trigger is selecting the building that is a part of a tableau to be the action for your turn?

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
whereas Deck/Pool Building is building a collection of things that you only sometimes have access to.
You mean like Ora et Labora where you can't select a building that is part of tableau to be the action for your turn if there is already a worker in it (unless, of course, you can use a different building building which lets you use the action of a building that has worker in it).

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
If there were no Tribune card and you could play the same card every turn, I would 100% agree that it's a Tableau Building game.
So by your definitions, Ora et Labora is a Deck/Pool Building game and not a Tableau Building game.
I would say that makes your definitions wrong.

There are more examples of Tableau Building games where your apparent definition does not work. Consider Glen More, some tiles in your Tableau you may not be able to activate. In London, your "city" definitely constitutes as a tableau, but most of the time, when you run your city, the benefits conferred by the buildings that make up your city will only ever be given during one run of your city.
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tuckerotl wrote:
Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
tuckerotl wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
According to Merriam-Webster a deck is "a pack of playing cards". Which led me to look up pack, which is defined as " a group or pile of related objects".

A hand is defined as "the cards or pieces held by a player".

From that perspective I think you need "deck" to describe all the cards you own in Concordia, as hand only covers the ones you are currently holding.
No that is precisely what makes Concordia not a deck building game. The fact that individual players do not have a deck of cards, just a hand of cards and a discard/played pile.

A "deck" of cards can mean a "pack" or a "stack" (and very frequently, especially coming from traditional card games, these are the same thing, and there is only one in a game).
A "pack" is the entire group of cards (including any cards which start in player's "hands" of cards).
A "stack" is a pile of cards which are drawn from.
Many, more current games, also have a "display" of cards, for example in both Ticket to Ride and Concordia, cards are drawn from the "deck" (i.e., "stack") to a "display".

Concordia and Lewis & Clark are just Hand Management games, not deck building games.

The only difference between the Hand Management of Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand.
Pfft, you may as well say that the only difference between Hero Realms and M:tG, is that Hero Realms has game play which allows you to add cards to your deck.
Nice Straw Man argument you have there.
I did not say that "The only difference between Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand."
I said that "The only difference between the Hand Management of Concordia and games like Witch of Salem, is that Concordia has game play which allows you to add cards to your hand."
Concordia, Witch of Salem and other games with Hand Management all have several other game play mechansims which differentiate them from each other.

M:tG has deck construction before the game; Hero Realms does not.
M:tG has 5 main currencies in the game (and a generic version of those 5 and then three sub currencies), any number of which may or may not be in a given player's deck at any point before or during the game; Hero Realms has three main currencies, of which two will be in each player's deck before the game, and at least 1 will always be in each player's deck.
M:tG only permits you to play 1 land (the main source of mana - the above mentioned currencies) on any given turn; Hero Realms lets you play any and all cards in hand and that you are permitted to draw during your turn.
M:tG has most cards stay in play (until removed by one of the players), including the aforementioned lands; Hero Realms has all cards from a given turn, played or not, discarded.
In M:tG if a given player runs out of cards to draw from their deck, that player loses; in Hero Realms if a given player runs out of cards to draw from their deck, they shuffle their discard pile to form a new deck.

All of these things affect the difference in Hand Management between M:tG and Hero Realms. To state that your straw man is anywhere near similar to my argument is asinine.

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
That "adding of cards to your ____," the way the you evolve your future options with your current choices, is the WHOLE POINT of a deck/pool building game.
You can "evolve your future options with your current choices" in a great many types of different games. You can buy/build buildings in Kingsburg which might provide re-rolls or other alterations of die results in future turns. Kingsburg is not a deck building game.

In 4X games like Clash of Cultures, Through the Ages, and Civilization you can get techs which vastly change your "future options"; none of these are deck building games.

The "WHOLE POINT" of deck building games is to alter the likely range of available options (given that initial options for any given turn will be a [likely random] subset of a player's total possible options). In hand management games like Concordia, a player always knows exactly what the range of options will be for their next turn based what they play this turn, and knows exactly which play they will need to make to make their entire set of options available to them next turn.

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
I think of Tableau Building as building a collection of things that are always-on or activate via triggers,
You mean like Ora et Labora, where the trigger is selecting the building that is a part of a tableau to be the action for your turn?

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
whereas Deck/Pool Building is building a collection of things that you only sometimes have access to.
You mean like Ora et Labora where you can't select a building that is part of tableau to be the action for your turn if there is already a worker in it (unless, of course, you can use a different building building which lets you use the action of a building that has worker in it).

Cosmonaut Zero wrote:
If there were no Tribune card and you could play the same card every turn, I would 100% agree that it's a Tableau Building game.
So by your definitions, Ora et Labora is a Deck/Pool Building game and not a Tableau Building game.
I would say that makes your definitions wrong.

There are more examples of Tableau Building games where your apparent definition does not work. Consider Glen More, some tiles in your Tableau you may not be able to activate. In London, your "city" definitely constitutes as a tableau, but most of the time, when you run your city, the benefits conferred by the buildings that make up your city will only ever be given during one run of your city.
My point was that the act of adding things to to your deck is a critical difference, and one that defines genres. Pooh-poohing that factor when we're dealing with hands instead of decks is, frankly, laughably myopic. I chose a ridiculous comparison on purpose, made explicit by the "you may as well say." If you can't even get there without getting lost in the reeds, I'm not sure how we're going to continue having a conversation.

WRT Ora et Labor, I have not played it so I can't make a judgement. It sounds like it combines some aspects of deck/pool building and tableau building in an interesting way but shrug. I'll get back to you if I ever get around to playing it.
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It's not really a hand or a deck. The information is completely trackable. It's just a way to track action selection options.

And hand management might make sense as a way to describe some games, but not this. You don't manage anything. It's like saying a game includes ball scratching. You might do that but it's not a mechanism, it's just fiddling around with crap when you're bored.

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Conceptually I'd say you could include Concordia in the deckbuilding category even though there is no personal draw deck. I think a better choice would be to have a couple of beers and an order of extra large onion rings.
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