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Subject: Random script rss

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Vik Leroy
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Hi

I'm not very experienced with the game. I would like to ask you if random script can be playable without a story.

I generate this one for example.

I don't know about the difficulty too.

Quote:

--=--


Set: Basic Tragedy
Days: 5
Loops: 3 or 4

Day 1:
Day 2: Hospital Incident
Day 3:
Day 4: Faraway Murder
Day 5: Faraway Murder

--=--

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Script Title: ???

Plot: Murder Plan
Subplot: The Hidden Freak
Subplot: An Unsettling Rumour

Pop Idol : Key person
Patient: Person
Nurse: Brain
Informer: Serial Killer
Journalist: Conspiracy Theorist
Boss: Killer
Henchman: Friend

Day 1:
Day 2: Hospital Incident (Henchman)
Day 3:
Day 4: Faraway Murder (Boss)
Day 5: Faraway Murder (Patient)


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Christian K
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Random sceipts are playable but with some weakness.

1) it is hard to know how manu loops is fair
2) it can be impossible for the protagonists to win.
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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Muemmelmann wrote:
Random sceipts are playable but with some weakness.

I think he meant random as in "no backstory", not random as in "random generated"





To answer the question, of course it's possible.

There are any number of ways of creating a script, you could come up with some cool gimmick or have a story or have a very tight idea for solution etc.


Truth is, every time I ran a scenario to a group of friends from the basic game they never bothered listening in on the story.


As for this particular one, first off, where is the Boss's turf?


Second, this script might be too tough.
There are just so many ways of winning here that don't require the use of the main plot, that make it really tough to have a final guess here even after 4 loops.

Hospital kills protagonists
Hospital kills pop idol
Hospital kills Henchmen
Faraway murder killing pop idol
Faraway murder kills henchmen
Serial killer kills patient
Serial killer kills henchmen

Almost any of the above (short of the faraway murder) can be done by day 2 with almost no way for protagonists to stop it without knowing 100% what's going on.

For example, putting the henchmen in the city on the first loop means he'll get paranoia since everyone (except nurse and patient) are there. Nurse + Rumor and you have enough intrigue on hospital to kill protagonists.

Second loop, put henchmen in shrine. Put a paranoia card on him (protagonists know they have to put -1 paranoia or lose the same way again) so they won't move him. Diagonal movement on informer and he's dead (Put vertical movement on nurse just to be sure)

Third loop aim to kill the key person with serial killer (just clear the city except both) or drop the hospital on friend\key person

See my point? You don't need to use the killer at all or even seriously expose your CT. Faraway murder isn't really needed. Since the ability to lose is so fast here, protagonists don't have a lot of time to learn what's going on.

So ultimately, I think it's too tough to win on the loop and there are too many ways to win that won't force all the roles in the script so final guess will be a coin flip.

This one might need even more than 5 loops.
 
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Vik Leroy
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GrandMasterFox wrote:
Muemmelmann wrote:
Random sceipts are playable but with some weakness.

I think he meant random as in "no backstory", not random as in "random generated"

In this case, it is "no backstory" AND "random generated". That's my question.

I understand what you say Tomer. The number of loops has been calculated with the factors in the basis rules and we see that it can be far away from the reality.

The random generation can be used, but need to be tested by the GM to see how many loops are needed and if the players can win, without the final deduction.
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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vikleroy wrote:

In this case, it is "no backstory" AND "random generated". That's my question.

Ah! My bad!

vikleroy wrote:

I understand what you say Tomer. The number of loops has been calculated with the factors in the basis rules and we see that it can be far away from the reality.

Yes, the guidelines in the book are just basic guidelines.
There are a lot of cases where scripts can be unsolvable despite the guidelines.

It's always in my to do list to try and build an AI for this game.
In that case, I could just run it against itself to have an estimation of a script.
 
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Vik Leroy
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Quote:
It's always in my to do list to try and build an AI for this game.

That's the idea.

Develop an intelligence that can make playable scripts.

This first step shows the limits.

But the rules in the guidelines are not enough. That's what I wanted to know, and you answer well.

Now, the next step is to know what must be forbidden, etc.
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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and hopefully make it a playable game solo or without the need to keep asking who did what script



Either way, I think that ultimately, the number of moves in this game are finite and unlike a game like Chess you can't be stuck in a loop (oh the irony) so at the very least it's possible to know if a script is winnable in a loop.

And it could even do elimination to see if Final Guess has 100% knowledge of the script.



The problem is, it's harder to estimate what's likely to be done.
For example, let's say we have a game with:
Boy, Girl, Rich Man's daughter, Class Rep, Teacher and Henchmen all start at the school. One is a cultist, the other is a witch.

Now, technically speaking, the mastermind wins this by one move on day 1 by putting +2 intrigue on school. The only way to stop it, is to move the cultist, but there are 6 options. The odds of players picking the right one are rather slim.

But it's technically solvable.
 
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Xiao Xu
Canada
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Since Tomer has already found most of the problems in your script, I am not going to state them again, but rather give you some guidelines as to how to make a good script.

A common mistake that many script writers make is making too many win conditions for the Mastermind. This is because you know all the roles, thus psychologically you would place yourself in the position of the Mastermind. My suggestion to you is to always place yourself in the position of a protagonist, then ask yourself is the script too hard to solve? Are the roles easy to find?

Win the loop or Final Guess?
There are two win conditions for the Protagonists: Win through loop or Final Guess. As a script writer, you should always open up at least one of the two win conditions to the protagonists. This might seem obvious, but you won't believe the number of scripts where the win conditions for the protagonists are vague. I am going to list the three common types of scripts.

Win the loop scripts
These scripts tend to have a hidden role that is easy to hide, such as a "conspiracy theorist", who is not necessary to fulfill the Mastermind's win condition. However, the Mastermind also does not have a lot of win conditions to work with. The game becomes whether or not the players can identify Mastermind's win conditions.

Final Guess scripts
These scripts tend to have a difficult to impossible solution, or an unstoppable course of events. The Mastermind can easily win each loop without any efforts, but the roles are easy to identify if played correctly. These scripts rely on characters such as "Rich Man's Daughter", "Pop Idol", and a couple of Reveal Role characters to assist the protagonists for the Final Guess.

Middle measure scripts
The Mastermind has limited win conditions, and there's usually a critical hidden character that the Mastermind does not reveal. The Players will have to force the Mastermind to reveal the character by eliminating all of Mastermind's other win conditions. Some Sealed Item scripts fall into this category: the Mastermind will usually use either the "Cultist" or "Brain" to win, but not both. The players can force out the other role by moving the "Cultist" or "Brain" away from the shrine.

Hopefully this helps.
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Vik Leroy
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Another time, it's not "my" script, but a random script.

But I understand all the difficulties to make a good script. The demonstration is done. Perhaps there are some simple rules which say for example that this character can't be in this kind of plot or sub plot, or in another case, if he's in, there must be another characters to balance.

Like Tomer says, there are finite moves in the game. The CPU has to try all the combinations in a loop to see what happens.
But there are intelligent moves and others. That makes another difficulty.

Not so simple.
 
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