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Subject: [WIP] 66d6 rss

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Martijn van der Lee
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Hoping to get some seriously harsh criticism that'll make this game as good as it can possibly be! devil
 
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Martijn van der Lee
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Added a visual tutorial portion to the manual.
Mostly just to see if it could be done.
 
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Martijn van der Lee
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Minor rule update regarding start. Instead of having to rule, blue player starts always. Makes the rules slightly easier with no noticable significant effect on gameplay.

Also some cosmetic changes to the manual, to keep headers and paragraphs together in the same column and/or page.
 
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Martijn van der Lee
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Changed the first post to reflect current state of the game (contest ready) and added some rationale to the categories in which I entered this game. Not necessary, but I thought it could be valuable and hope pull some people into trying the game themselves.
 
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Alek Erickson
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The rules manual is hilarious btw!
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C. L.
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Got it set up. Some quick comments...
The humor is much appreciated and play does look interesting (back later if I get a chance to play through)

- you have boards sized as letter, tabloid, etc. What you really need is board size by die size -- 12, 16, 19mm (then again sorted by print convention)

- in that vein, your printable dice are nonstandard sizes...

- we need a way to count the six actions. How about a die for that?

- the player aids printed on the board are not readable. Too small. Would be nice to have separate, legible player aids.

- I really like the visual reference in the rules, but would like one showing the whole board set up as well

- what does "move only on the edges of a field" mean?

All for now...


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Martijn van der Lee
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Thanks for the feedback.

Due to competition rules I won't be able to change anything right now, but I plan to incorporate any feedback into the game after the competition ends. I can, however, give answers:

- Board size; the board size and dice size don't really matter much. In general, bigger boards allow bigger dice (upto 10mm on A4/letter size, upto 21mm on the A3/tabloid boards) and bigger dice play much easier. But there's nothing to stop you from using bigger or smaller dice or printing the board bigger or smaller; gameplay is not affected, though usability of the components is. I'll make such clearer in the manual after the competition. If you mean you want different sizes for the printable dice, then please let me know which size you want and I'll add them after competition.

- Adding more dice! devil I prefer not to use dice spinning; it always annoys me in other games. But I can probably fit in 6-step tracks on the board somewhere. Any chip, cube, coin, meeple or even die would do to for that. Will try to fit those in after competition.

- The printable dice (as well as the boards) are intended to be printed ignoring borders (so part of the images will be cut off when printing; this won't hurt the components). The dice sheet should then match to a fraction of a mm. Could you tell me which you printed and how big the difference is? Since I generate all the components using scripts, it's trivial to fix these after the competition. The current sizes are based on the best fit for printable boards and the biggest size that still prints all dice required for most (2 sigma+) games on a single page. You should use real dice if at all remotely possible. Frankly, the dice-replacement chips work purely as a last resort and make the game much more cumbersome to play

- I guess on A4/Letter size, the text is quite small. I'll add reference cards after the competition. A reference card would also be a good place for the action counter you mentioned. Are the white "dice resolution" chart on the ends of the board and the special action texts also too small to read?

- Good idea w/r board setup in manual; I'll add a picture of a full initial setup after the competition.

- "Move only on the edges of a field" means I made a typo What it meant to say is that you can only move accross or over the edges; orthogonal, not diagonal. I included a picture in the manual that hopefully makes this clear. Will change the text and include an explicit no-diagonal statement after competition.

Hope you enjoy the game!
 
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Martijn van der Lee
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alekerickson wrote:
The rules manual is hilarious btw!
Thanks! Wasn't quite sure how people would take my sense of humor, so I'm glad you liked it.
 
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C. L.
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Hi! I used real 12mm dice and printed on letter. Tight fit! I can read the resolution tables, but not with ease.
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Martijn van der Lee
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I wouldn't go beyond 10mm on the A4/Letter boards; that's what they're made to fit. The 2 page A3/Tabloid board will fit any common dice size. I can probably enlarge the playfield a bit at cost of the border, which should make it fit 12mm.

Photo of the color board in start set up. All dice must be rolled randomly.

p.s. This is the A4 board with 8mm dice.
 
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Garry Hoddinott
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Sorry to be thick but its not apparent to me how to use the printable minions.

1. Do I simply cut 'em all up then randomly draw and place on the board to fill all spaces?
2. Do the minion values (ie 1-6) stay constant throughout the game
3. Is it necessary to use different coloured dice (minions for each player or is there no likelihood of them being mixed up?

I like the look and devilish feel of the game. Thanks for sharing it here. I'll no doubt have to play both sides, I hope the game is amenable to that such that I can give valid feedback
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Kai Bettzieche
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Tynes wrote:
I wouldn't go beyond 10mm on the A4/Letter boards; that's what they're made to fit. The 2 page A3/Tabloid board will fit any common dice size. I can probably enlarge the playfield a bit at cost of the border, which should make it fit 12mm.

p.s.: Photo of the color board in start set up. All dice must be rolled randomly.

Now, this looks awesome!
It always is impressive what a difference some artwork can make ..
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Martijn van der Lee
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I guess the manual could use some more work

GarryHoddinott wrote:
1. Do I simply cut 'em all up then randomly draw and place on the board to fill all spaces?
They are meant as literal replacement for dice. If you roll a 4 on a D6 dice, place a chip with denomination 4 on the board instead of the dice.
While on the gameboard, the value of dice do not change, so you can keep move around the chip instead of a real dice until the rules say it has to be rerolled, at which point you roll a real D6 dice and replace the old chip with a new chip.

GarryHoddinott wrote:
2. Do the minion values (ie 1-6) stay constant throughout the game
While a minion is on the board, it is constant.
After some battle resolutions, you may reroll a minion value and put it into your home realm (= big rectangular boxes), but while on the board, it won't change.
If this happens and you use chips instead of dice, just take the chip from the board and set it aside for later, roll a D6 and pick a new chip for the rolled value.

GarryHoddinott wrote:
3. Is it necessary to use different coloured dice (minions for each player or is there no likelihood of them being mixed up?
You can use any color and size of dice you want. You can mix them up if you like; size and color of dice has no meaning in this game.
The fields (5x4 grid in the middle of the board) are split in two colored halves, which is where you may place your own dice.
Just keep your dice on your side of each field and they won't be mixed up.
After some battle resolutions, a player can take the losing minion (= dice) into their own army, so color coding dice per army would only require more dice.

Please let me know if you need further information. I can get quite verbose at times and English is not my native tongue; a risky combination
 
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Garry Hoddinott
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Aaah (very low wattage light turns on) Thanks. Makes perfect sense. I'd drop a note very similar to answer 1 in the rules someplace. You have to make allowances for the vast unwashed you know.
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Martijn van der Lee
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GarryHoddinott wrote:
I'd drop a note very similar to answer 1 in the rules someplace.
For all your points I will change the manual to clarify. It'll have to wait until after competition is over, though. If you (or anybody else) doesn't understand the rules, it's my fault for not explaining them well enough
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milo del mal
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Hey man. I just read the rules (over and over again).

I will give you my first impressions.

1.- You really do need the dice. I cannot see myself rolling so much and adding those tokens (I will try to get some dice shipped to my place by the weekend).
2.- It looks fun, the combat system does look pretty interesting, because I feel like you should not always play your highest monster on stock.
3.- Yes, you have great sense of humor.


So just to let you know. I will not make comments on the art, because gameplay is what matters the most, but thematically, YOU ARE NAILING IT.

... And finally, sorry for taking so long to test it.
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milo del mal
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I finally got to play. So, here I am.

Players:
Emilio Estrada: I like games like Shogun, Game of Thrones the board game, and Agricola.

Miriam Arévalo: She likes games like King of Tokyo, Sushi Go, Escape from atlantis.

We both liked the game, it took us a little while to understand the balance of the dice. We believe dice 5 and 4 are really, like, really well rounded.

Miriam played Death, she was a little bit frustrated that she could not reroll her armies, but she understood the logic behind it.

The game started great, we were both very excited about it, however, as the game dragged, we lost interest; why, the game became repetitive. Maybe with less dice and a smaller board could work; I know, it goes against the name and the theme, so, I do not know how to solve it.

The general tactic became leaving two low mid numbers in the second line of the field, and then launching a high number minion from the back to kill one enemy and refreshing first line.

Other than that, it is a great game, your manual is excellent, and the game is really fun until it starts dragging on.

That said, thank you for this little laid back fun time. I wish you the best in the contest.
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Martijn van der Lee
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Thank you so much for playing!
milo_del_mal wrote:
We both liked the game, it took us a little while to understand the balance of the dice. We believe dice 5 and 4 are really, like, really well rounded.
Glad you liked it. The slow start is indeed a bit of a problem. Initially I didn't have the "15 dice on first row" setup instruction, which made the initial phase even more complicated.

milo_del_mal wrote:
Miriam played Death, she was a little bit frustrated that she could not reroll her armies, but she understood the logic behind it.
It's one of the things that I was least certain of. It breaks the balance a bit and I though the 2 vs. 1 dice sacrifice for the special actions would even it out. Guess that requires some more work.

milo_del_mal wrote:
The game started great, we were both very excited about it, however, as the game dragged, we lost interest; why, the game became repetitive. Maybe with less dice and a smaller board could work; I know, it goes against the name and the theme, so, I do not know how to solve it.
I'm aware of the issue with the pacing in mid-game to end-game. Perhaps I could balance it a bit by removing dice from the game more often, causing end-game to set in earlier.

milo_del_mal wrote:
That said, thank you for this little laid back fun time. I wish you the best in the contest.
Again, thanks for the feedback. I'll see what I can do to fix the pacing after the competition ends. Best of luck to you too.
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milo del mal
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Tynes wrote:

milo_del_mal wrote:
We both liked the game, it took us a little while to understand the balance of the dice. We believe dice 5 and 4 are really, like, really well rounded.
Glad you liked it. The slow start is indeed a bit of a problem. Initially I didn't have the "15 dice on first row" setup instruction, which made the initial phase even more complicated.

I think the startup is perfect. I cannot see the game starting any other way.


Tynes wrote:

milo_del_mal wrote:
Miriam played Death, she was a little bit frustrated that she could not reroll her armies, but she understood the logic behind it.
It's one of the things that I was least certain of. It breaks the balance a bit and I though the 2 vs. 1 dice sacrifice for the special actions would even it out. Guess that requires some more work.
I think it should stay, but the sacrifice values should be inverted. One for the devil to reroll his base (Because he is not changing the board) and two for the death to reroll devil's board, because he is totally screwing up any tactical advantage the devil could have created. In fact, in think that if she had done a nice tactical barrier of 2, 4, with the row behind it with 5, 6, and used her special ability more, she could have decimated me in no time.

Tynes wrote:

milo_del_mal wrote:
The game started great, we were both very excited about it, however, as the game dragged, we lost interest; why, the game became repetitive. Maybe with less dice and a smaller board could work; I know, it goes against the name and the theme, so, I do not know how to solve it.
I'm aware of the issue with the pacing in mid-game to end-game. Perhaps I could balance it a bit by removing dice from the game more often, causing end-game to set in earlier.
That could work; maybe having some vantage points on the field. Maybe an alternate victory condition. Just running out of dice seems like it drags.
In fact, I would go for alternate victory conditions, so the player can have different tactics to win. That way you would not need to use less dice, because, let's be honest, 66d6 name - theme - components combo is fucking genius.



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Martijn van der Lee
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milo_del_mal wrote:
I think it should stay, but the sacrifice values should be inverted. One for the devil to reroll his base (Because he is not changing the board) and two for the death to reroll devil's board, because he is totally screwing up any tactical advantage the devil could have created. In fact, in think that if she had done a nice tactical barrier of 2, 4, with the row behind it with 5, 6, and used her special ability more, she could have decimated me in no time.
I'll try to get some more playtesting data on this and try to figure out how much of a difference the two special actions make. Perhaps the special actions could be used in a way to fix the other issue of the dragging end-game.

Tynes wrote:
That could work; maybe having some vantage points on the field. Maybe an alternate victory condition. Just running out of dice seems like it drags. In fact, I would go for alternate victory conditions, so the player can have different tactics to win. That way you would not need to use less dice, because, let's be honest, 66d6 name - theme - components combo is fucking genius.
Also a solution worth investigating. I generally prefer to have a "natural" ending, but perhaps if I could make the "Slaughter" action a lot more powerful to effectively make it a "near-victory-condition". Like defecting a number of enemy minions equal to the the value of the attacking dice so it would very quickly shift the balance. How often did you get to use the "Slaughter" action in your game?

Again thanks for your feedback and ideas!
 
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Matthew Spath
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I just this played this with a friend. It dragged on 2 hours and neither of us could figure out a way to actually win. We called the game a draw because we thought it'd go on forever. Is there actually a way to force a win in this?

The game seems pretty interesting otherwise, and I rather liked it. The battle resolution mechanic is pretty clever.

Also, rule clarification: the rules strongly imply that if the defender has a dice equal to the attacker he must use that one. It's a contradicts some other rule statements though. Specifically, where it says "The minion chosen must be greater or equal if available in the field." and then says "If you have a 3 and 5 and are attacked with a 3, you must defend with the 3." The second statement seems to contradict the first.
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Martijn van der Lee
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liq3 wrote:
I just this played this with a friend. It dragged on 2 hours and neither of us could figure out a way to actually win. We called the game a draw because we thought it'd go on forever. Is there actually a way to force a win in this?

The game seems pretty interesting otherwise, and I rather liked it. The battle resolution mechanic is pretty clever.

Also, rule clarification: the rules strongly imply that if the defender has a dice equal to the attacker he must use that one. It's a contradicts some other rule statements though. Specifically, where it says "The minion chosen must be greater or equal if available in the field." and then says "If you have a 3 and 5 and are attacked with a 3, you must defend with the 3." The second statement seems to contradict the first.
Hi, Thanks for playing this game.
I'm aware of the ending dragging on and have been meaning to fix this for a while now, but simply haven't gotten around to it yet due to other game contest designs.

The current plan is to make the "border encounter" (forgot what I called it) stronger; basically destroy the number of enemy minions equal to the number of pips on the invading die; this should decimate a losing army much quicker.

As for the rules ambiguity; I'll have to look in to it.
 
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Matthew Spath
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So, after playing around for another hour or two by myself, I think I have a pretty good grasp on the strategy. If I'm completely wrong I'd love to hear that, because right now the game seems too simple and completely unbalanced.

Using pairs of 1 and/or 2s (preferably a 1 and a 2, since two 2s can be beaten with two 4s) on your 2nd row seems to be the optimal strategy. You might be able to use a 3 as one of those dice to make your 1/2s last longer, but it carries the risk of a pair of 6s killing the 3.

The problem arises that the only response to these 1/2 pairs is to take them out with a pair of 5s and/or 6s (preferably 5s, since 6s can be used to kill 3s). This results in both players slowly grinding each other down until one player has run out of 1s and 2s or 5s and 6s. At this point, Devil basically wins, since he can reroll all his useless 3s and 4s.

Another part of the problem is that any sort attack takes multiple turns since attacks on the 3rd row take 4 actions, while moving up defending dice only takes 2 actions. So as far as I can tell effective attacks are basically impossible. Your opponent always has time to reinforce with defensive dice. This is why the slow grind is the only real strategy I can see.

Making the Slaughter (the border action) action more severe won't fix this, since the game is basically already over by the time anyone should be able to use it.

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Martijn van der Lee
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liq3 wrote:
Also, rule clarification: the rules strongly imply that if the defender has a dice equal to the attacker he must use that one. It's a contradicts some other rule statements though. Specifically, where it says "The minion chosen must be greater or equal if available in the field." and then says "If you have a 3 and 5 and are attacked with a 3, you must defend with the 3." The second statement seems to contradict the first.
Looking at the rules again, they are indeed ambiguous. The example is wrong and should have been "If you have a 3 and 5 and are attacked with a 5, you must defend with the 5.". I don't quite know how this slipped through, but it did. I'll change the downloads accordingly.

As for the strategy part. Quite frankly I haven't completely sussed it out myself. There isn't a single winning (or losing) strategy; it really depends on playing to your army's strengths and reacting to the opponents' actions.

If you come to a defense stale-mate, both players are probably playing completely defensively, slowly and evenly moving their "walls" forwards. Since you must move, this will inevitably break down and the players will have to start attacking regardless. If, on the other hand, one player is overly defensive, he becomes very easy to beat simply by attacking him aggressively and remembering to flank.

The best strategy I've come up with is to take some highly aggressive pot-shots in the start while slowly building up a single big army (best on the side column of the board) and some lesser defensive forces in the other columns. The offensive column would typically be headed by 2 low dice and one medium/high, followed by a steady mixed supply line one of each group (I tend to group 1/2, 3/4 and 5/6 as different roles).

As for single playing (which I did a lot while playtesting), it's usually best to ascribe a certain "character" to the players (defensive, aggressive, conservative, risk taking). If you counter with an identical strategy, you'll likely come to stale situations.

A big problem with single player playtesting is knowing the opponent's strategy. With two players, you'll be able to do things like lure your opponent away for a minor loss while preparing a blitzkrieg on the other side. Admittedly, this will work better if the Slaughter's effect is more severe.

As for attacks on the end row taking many actions, remember that you can quickly accumulate forces by moving sideways into columns, you don't actually need to move the dice long distances in order to push on. Feigning a impending attack in one column then sidestepping often works. Again, this only works if you're playing somebody else. Remember that your opponent will usually react to a threat, so feigning a threat may take a bit longer to set up, but is often be worth the effort.
 
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Matthew Spath
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Tynes wrote:
If you come to a defense stale-mate, both players are probably playing completely defensively, slowly and evenly moving their "walls" forwards. Since you must move, this will inevitably break down and the players will have to start attacking regardless.
This isn't an issue for the Devil since he can keep all his pieces on his home and 2nd rows and play completely defensively. If he'd be in danger of putting a 3rd dice in a field, he can attack with 2 dice to avoid this, and slowly gain the advantage by having better dice. The reason Death can't do this is he can't reroll his home dice.

Quote:
If, on the other hand, one player is overly defensive, he becomes very easy to beat simply by attacking him aggressively and remembering to flank.
I don't understand how this is supposed to work. If the defensive player never leaves the 3rd and 4th rows, the aggressive players attacks are less action efficient, so any attack is going to run out of steam. It takes 4 actions to attack a dice on the 3rd row, while only 2 actions for the defensive player to put it there. Also, since he has to move his dice up first, the defensive player can do more action efficient counter attacks (3 actions to attack dice on his 2nd row) which leaves the aggressive player with the choice of inefficiently reinforcing, or leaving his strong dice exposed to attack.

Quote:
The best strategy I've come up with is to take some highly aggressive pot-shots in the start while slowly building up a single big army (best on the side column of the board) and some lesser defensive forces in the other columns. The offensive column would typically be headed by 2 low dice and one medium/high, followed by a steady mixed supply line one of each group (I tend to group 1/2, 3/4 and 5/6 as different roles).
Several issues with this. If you put 3 dice non-high defensively in a spot, your opponent can simply move 2 low dice there and you can never get rid of them without sacrificing your own dice. If you put a high dice there it's going to get killed. Also as I mentioned in the other paragraph, when you do attack it's not going to go anywhere due to defense being more action efficient than attack.

Quote:
As for attacks on the end row taking many actions, remember that you can quickly accumulate forces by moving sideways into columns, you don't actually need to move the dice long distances in order to push on. Feigning a impending attack in one column then sidestepping often works. Again, this only works if you're playing somebody else. Remember that your opponent will usually react to a threat, so feigning a threat may take a bit longer to set up, but is often be worth the effort.
The problem is feigning attacks doesn't accomplish anything when your opponents entire 2nd row is full of low dice. Every field is equal strength, so it doesn't matter which location you attack. If they start running out of low dice, tactics like this may work, but at that point Devil would just reroll his dice to get more low dice anyway.
 
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