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Subject: [WIP] COLONNADE - 2017 Two-Player PnP Contest - components ready rss

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Mark Tuck
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EDIT 6 MAY: Version 2 now available at: COLONNADE v.2




This is my second deck & dice entry to the
2017 Two-Player Print and Play Game Design Contest


It's a column building game that uses just a standard deck of cards and 6 dice.

Players add cards to a 6 column Colonnade according to the dice they roll. You gain control of a column by placing more cards on it than your opponent.
And you can push your luck for better dice combos that will give a greater choice of ways to play your cards.

The player who controls the majority of columns at the end of the game wins.

Components:
1 deck of standard playing cards
6 D6 dice

Playing Time:
30 20 minutes

Ages:
8+

Categories:
Please consider my game for
Best Casual/Gateway Game
Best Game with Language Independent Components
Best Deck & Dice Game
Best Game

The rules are on just one sheet of paper and include examples of play. You can find them at: COLONNADE
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Garry Hoddinott
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I liked the idea so set up a game ASAP.

First play - and it looks like it's ... as Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage might say ... busted.



Both players have 3 of the same cards - Top player cannot play on any column, and bottom player is fast running out of options.

There needs to be some accounting for this position - perhaps the ability to play on the other players columns. Or the option to forego a turn and dump some or all cards back to the pack.
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Mark Tuck
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GarryHoddinott wrote:
I liked the idea so set up a game ASAP.
Thanks for trying out the game so quickly Garry, and for feeding back

Quote:
First play - and it looks like it's ... as Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage might say ... busted.
Interesting. I've simulated around a dozen games and every one finished with very few cards discarded - so I need to look at this scenario...

Quote:
Both players have 3 of the same cards - Top player cannot play on any column, and bottom player is fast running out of options.
Your pic is sideways so I'll rotate it anti-clockwise in my head so that the player holding 3 Kings is at the bottom.
That player can try to play to (their) columns 1, 5 and 6. So they need to roll either three 1s, four 5s or three 6s to place a card.
If they fall short with their first 2 rolls then they can simply wait till the next turn (and also discard one of the Kings if they choose) or push their luck with the dice. That could result in them placing a card but also maybe having to discard from their draw deck.

Just checking that this is how you were playing?

The top player does indeed have a poor hand...
It looks like they need to draw a card. Any card from a 2 (the ideal result, given their hand) through to a Jack will give them a chance to play that card.

Quote:
There needs to be some accounting for this position - perhaps the ability to play on the other players columns. Or the option to forego a turn and dump some or all cards back to the pack.
If you are unable to play a card you can always discard a card and draw another. So there's no advantage in playing to the other player's column - you may as well discard any card from your hand as, either way, you'll get a new card from your deck.

However, maybe we allow a player to discard as many cards as they want? In that way, its a trade off between getting more choice in your hand (and not needing to discard) and running down your draw deck.

Let me know your thoughts

 
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Marty Lund
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Looks cool! Good luck!
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Garry Hoddinott
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There it was in black and white, and I missed it totally.

If no cards were played, a player may discard one card from their
hand and draw another.


Sorry Mark, you had clearly anticipated the unplayable hand scenario and sculpted a rule appropriately.

Top Player was dealt the three ACES in setup and had struggled thru the first 10 turns to get into the game. They had done nothing 3 or 4 turns, had already discarded 4 and played a joker so was feeling a bit antsy. No doubt that affected the ability to read rules.

I liked the game conceptually - quick to setup, easy to get into and provides the opportunity to think ahead and play cards to set up other plays etc. I'm going back for more!
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Mark Tuck
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GarryHoddinott wrote:
There it was in black and white, and I missed it totally.
shake
 
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JK
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Hi Mark. Welcome to the contest (again). Best of luck, JK
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Garry Hoddinott
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I've played 4 games since getting the rules straight albeit as a 2 player solo. In a sense it is a 2 player solo as there is no player interaction.

The big plus is that it is quick to set up and play is straight forward. Once the dice combos are memorised there is no need to print rules.
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Mark Tuck
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JohnKean wrote:
Hi Mark. Welcome to the contest (again). Best of luck, JK

Thanks John
 
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Mark Tuck
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GarryHoddinott wrote:
I've played 4 games since getting the rules straight albeit as a 2 player solo. In a sense it is a 2 player solo as there is no player interaction.

The big plus is that it is quick to set up and play is straight forward. Once the dice combos are memorised there is no need to print rules.


Thanks for playing some more Garry.

I think the feel of the game is slightly different when you're competing with an opponent for each column (as opposed to simulating both hands solo) and can lead to some strategy as to which columns you focus on - consolidating the ones where you're well ahead v. trying to swing tied ones in your favour v., ignoring completely ones where you lagging well behind etc.

A roll of 5 (or 6) of a kind does allows you to remove your opponent's cards (and play them on your side). So a kind of interaction, albeit not very often.



 
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PLAYTESTER SPOT PRIZES

This game is eligible for a playtester spot prize for the next week!

See this post for more details.
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Martijn van der Lee
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Just ran a full game for playtesting. Here's my feedback:

In general, the game is easy to learn and play, the manual is well-written and clearly illustrated and I like that it uses just some standard components, which makes it easy to get started. The use of dice for both marking the columns and determining card placement rule is interresting.

That being said, the game is far too random for my liking. It depends a lot on luck and most of the time I found I had little choice in what to do. I think with some balancing to the rules (mostly the 3/4 matching dice and penalty) to give the player more agency, it could improve a lot. I hope you do.

For your statistics: my game ended in a 3:2 column lead with the largest column-side being 4 cards. No jokers uses, No 5 or 6 matches made.

Manual
* In the "Rolling the dice" chapter, you use the word "lock" which wasn't immediately clear to me. Perhaps something like "set aside and cannot be rerolled this turn"?
* I didn't need the examples on page 2, apart from a quick look at the illustrations to see how to stack cards, so no feedback on that page.
* The manual states about 30 minutes of play. With some experience I think this game can be played much faster, more like 15 minutes or so.

Rules
* What if I roll a pair that I can't or don't want to use?
* The manual mentions "colour". I'm assuming this means "suit" rather than the actual red or black colour?
* I'm assuming that the rank/colour(suit?) to match is the topmost of the player's own column or the architrave's if the player doesn't have a column yet?
* What do the 5 and 6 match do if the opponent has no cards on a column?
* What if you can't play any card on any column after three rerolls? The penalty seems especially harsh in this case.
* I didn't get to use the jokers; they went straight from the draw pile into the discard pile, so I have no feedback on that mechanism.

Gameplay
* If you don't have any cards that fit the columns, you're out of luck. Perhaps allow a player to discard cards from hand at will? It has the penalty built-in and prevents stale game states.
* The 3 matching dice bonus is too little; it rarely ever made a difference to gameplay.
* I very rarely found myself trying for a 4th matching die, never mind a 5th or 6th. The risk/reward is just way too high.
* There is very little interaction between players. 5 and 6 matches never happened for me, so the only interaction remaining was the column sizes, and those were mostly based on luck.
* The game is finished well before the last cards are played. I found that the last 4 or 5 cards for either player were either unplayable or wouldn't help win a column. The "must discard" drawing cards rule atleast prevented the end-game from dragging on, but still; I feel the cards in hand should have some sort of value or penalty.

I'd merge the 3 and 4 match rules into 3, bring 5 to 4, 6 to 5 and think of something totally awesome for 6 (it'll rarely ever occur anyway); like taking opponents' card(s) from hand or draw pile. Perhaps allow to have more rank difference at higher matches.

Alternatively make the penalty less severe, though I imagine that'll just make the rules more complicated and still keep an imbalance in risk/reward.

Hope this feedbacks help make your game
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Mark Tuck
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Tynes wrote:
Just ran a full game for playtesting. Here's my feedback:

In general, the game is easy to learn and play, the manual is well-written and clearly illustrated and I like that it uses just some standard components, which makes it easy to get started. The use of dice for both marking the columns and determining card placement rule is interresting.
Thanks

Quote:
That being said, the game is far too random for my liking. It depends a lot on luck and most of the time I found I had little choice in what to do. I think with some balancing to the rules (mostly the 3/4 matching dice and penalty) to give the player more agency, it could improve a lot. I hope you do.
Yes, I'm sure there's room for improvement

Quote:
Manual
* In the "Rolling the dice" chapter, you use the word "lock" which wasn't immediately clear to me. Perhaps something like "set aside and cannot be rerolled this turn"?
Yes, I should explain 'lock' the first time it's used

Quote:
* The manual states about 30 minutes of play. With some experience I think this game can be played much faster, more like 15 minutes or so.
I can put 15 - 30 minutes

Quote:
Rules
* What if I roll a pair that I can't or don't want to use?
You don't have to use any dice if you don't want to.

Quote:
* The manual mentions "colour". I'm assuming this means "suit" rather than the actual red or black colour?
No, it means colour (suits are irrelevant in the game). So, as stated in the rules, for a matching pair of dice, the placed card needs to be a black on a red (or vice versa) - is this how you played?

Quote:
* I'm assuming that the rank/colour(suit?) to match is the topmost of the player's own column or the architrave's if the player doesn't have a column yet?
Yes, on the last card played, or if no cards yet played, then on the central architrave. This is, hopefully, illustrated in the page 2 examples.

Quote:
* What do the 5 and 6 match do if the opponent has no cards on a column?
If you roll 5 or 6 of a kind then the dice can be split into two separate rolls for the purposes of added cards to your columns.

Quote:
* What if you can't play any card on any column after three rerolls? The penalty seems especially harsh in this case.
Any dice rolled that match do not incur a penalty (even if you can't place a card on that column) Worst case scenario - if all 6 dice are different, then you discard 6 cards. Maybe this roll should be rewarded rather than penalised?

Quote:
* I didn't get to use the jokers; they went straight from the draw pile into the discard pile, so I have no feedback on that mechanism.
There is no benefit in simply discarding the joker without using it to change a dice score. I always keep it in hand until it can be used to my advantage, At the very least it can be used to prevent a penalty.

Quote:
Gameplay
* If you don't have any cards that fit the columns, you're out of luck. Perhaps allow a player to discard cards from hand at will? It has the penalty built-in and prevents stale game states.
If no cards are played then a player may discard one card and draw another. But maybe allowing the discard of more than 1 card would work better.

Quote:
* The 3 matching dice bonus is too little; it rarely ever made a difference to gameplay.
* I very rarely found myself trying for a 4th matching die, never mind a 5th or 6th. The risk/reward is just way too high.
3 matching dice basically doubles the potentially playable cards.
For example, to play on a red 6:
Rolling a double, you can play either either black 5 or either black 7 - so 4 possible cards.
Rolling 3 of a kind, you can play ANY colour 5 or 7, red or black, so 8 possible cards.
Rolling 4 of a kind means you can also play a 6, increasing possible cards to 11. (so maybe it is this roll that needs looking at)

Quote:
* There is very little interaction between players. 5 and 6 matches never happened for me, so the only interaction remaining was the column sizes, and those were mostly based on luck.
* The game is finished well before the last cards are played. I found that the last 4 or 5 cards for either player were either unplayable or wouldn't help win a column. The "must discard" drawing cards rule atleast prevented the end-game from dragging on, but still; I feel the cards in hand should have some sort of value or penalty.
I think if you have no playable cards in hand then you could simply 'fold' to speed things up.

Quote:

I'd merge the 3 and 4 match rules into 3, bring 5 to 4, 6 to 5 and think of something totally awesome for 6 (it'll rarely ever occur anyway); like taking opponents' card(s) from hand or draw pile. Perhaps allow to have more rank difference at higher matches.
That's a good suggestion - I'll test merging some of the matches and try to think of something else for 6

Quote:
Hope this feedbacks help make your game
Yes, great feedback and thanks for playing Martijn !
 
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Martijn van der Lee
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I did play by suit for the 3-match rule rather than color. I think that would make quite a difference in the desirability of 3.
I'll see if I can atleast do a partial playtest to see if it does improve gameplay for me. 4 is still too little benefit to risk a third reroll.

I think that the chances of a matching card for 3 or 4 are far lower in the latter half of the game so although a 3 or 4 may be valuable in the first turns, they get increasingly less so in the last turns.
 
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Martijn van der Lee
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Just played another game again using the colour rather than suit for 3-match rule. The game is quick to set up, which really is nice. Just a stack of cards and no manual needed once you know the rules. Game ended in 3:1 for second player.

Though using colour does make things a bit easier, it still isn't nearly enough for my taste.

Throughout most of the game I found myself with 6 cards in hand and only one of them remotely usable, usually requiring 3 or even 4 matches on one specific column. Apart from a the first few turns, I had few choices. A lot of times the dice rolled for columns I had no possibility of using.

I'd experiment with loosening up the restrictions for card placement. It feels for most part of the game you're just following a predetermined path with little influence over the game. Perhaps experiment with dropping colour distinction altogether or allowing +2/-2 rank range or something like that.

I'd also prefer a rule allowing the player to discard one and/or more cards from hand, hoping to prevent the situation where a player's hand forces his choices.
 
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Mark Tuck
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Following feedback and further testing I've now updated the rules as follows:

* Players can now discard any number of cards from their hand.

* Penalty for unmatched dice after third roll is now less severe.

* Additional action added for 4 matching dice.

These changes should encourage more risk taking, give players more choice and result in a little more interaction.

I've also clarified a couple of things and reduced the suggested game time to 20 minutes.

You'll find the new rules at: COLONNADE v.2
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I played a quick solo game to get a grisp of the rules and I must say I’m very impressed. The game flows as a charm and all the situations are covered by the rules.

I found that the most usual combinations are pairs and triplets and you need to keep the joker to force a powerful one to turn the game to your side.

Just one question to be sure: when the game is finishing and one player is out of cards, the other player can play two or three turns in a row, isn’t it?
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Mark Tuck
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7isprime wrote:


I played a quick solo game to get a grisp of the rules and I must say I’m very impressed. The game flows as a charm and all the situations are covered by the rules.
Great! Music to my ears!

Quote:
I found that the most usual combinations are pairs and triplets and you need to keep the joker to force a powerful one to turn the game to your side.
Yes, playing the Joker's die changing ability at the right time can swing things in your favour.

Quote:
Just one question to be sure: when the game is finishing and one player is out of cards, the other player can play two or three turns in a row, isn’t it?
Yes, the other player continues until they also run out of cards.

Thanks for trying out the game - I'm pleased you found the rules clear.
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Hi Mark,

I finally got to play this game with my wife. You must know that I am sharing the fate of zillions boardgamers all around the globe:
My wife just does not like boardgames.

... but she does like card games and she is even more willing to try out a new game if can be played with a 55 card standard poker deck.

Well, we played two games on two different evenings and we had a great time. The first game ended in a tie, broken in my wife's favour due to the longest single row rule. It was tough from the beginning because despite extensive shuffling the cards in the architrave were two fives, two sixes and I can't remember the sixth card.

In the second game, the architrave was a good mix of cards, but my wife didn't draw well and also she didn't roll very well, so I won 4 to 1 with one column tied.
The issue is, that she tried to improve her hand by discarding 1-2 cards almost every other round and it didn't help. I guess this can happen in a game where you depend on luck of the initial card distribution, card draw and dice. Nevertheless it was fun and we will try again.

I am amazed and delighted by the high level of quality you are delivering game after game, contest after contest.

Lastly, I wouldn't be me if I hadn't some comments and proposals to an already very polished game:

What I like:
+ the rules are precise, well written and I like the fact that you provide a full page of examples.
+ the flow of the game is nice and there is almost no downtime for the other player.
+ my wife likes the game, too.

What could be considered for a next revision:

A) I was wondering if it is necessary to actually "lock" dice between rolls. Wouldn't it allow for more flexibility if the restriction was just the number of rolls with a free choice of dice to re-roll each time?

B) In the second game we had the situtation that my wife was down to one hand card and tried to place it in one final desperate roll. In that case she didn't have to care for the penalty, because she would either succeed after the third roll and place the final card or she wouldn't and have to discard the final card before taking the penalty. The final sentence in step 4. would take precedence over the final sentence in step 3. Is this correct?

One last thing I thought about was the potential to have a bit more interaction between players. Currently, the mechanics are done in a way that each player plays his/her game. The only piece of interaction is the selection of columns I try to focus on based on what my opponent does.
I was wondering how the game would play if there would be just one stack of cards on each architrave and each card played would impact the strategy of the other player... a bad hand could suddenly provide new chances if the opponent plays a card on exactly the column number where I couldn't play on in the previous round. What do you think?

Dark.
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Since it was a bit tiresome to constantly look into the rules just to check what you can do with your dice, I put up a quick Game Aid.



Dark.
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DarkPadawan wrote:
Hi Mark,

I finally got to play this game with my wife. You must know that I am sharing the fate of zillions boardgamers all around the globe:
My wife just does not like boardgames.
My wife is the same!

Quote:
... but she does like card games and she is even more willing to try out a new game if can be played with a 55 card standard poker deck.

Well, we played two games on two different evenings and we had a great time.
Glad to hear it!

Quote:
The first game ended in a tie, broken in my wife's favour due to the longest single row rule. It was tough from the beginning because despite extensive shuffling the cards in the architrave were two fives, two sixes and I can't remember the sixth card.

In the second game, the architrave was a good mix of cards, but my wife didn't draw well and also she didn't roll very well, so I won 4 to 1 with one column tied.
The issue is, that she tried to improve her hand by discarding 1-2 cards almost every other round and it didn't help. I guess this can happen in a game where you depend on luck of the initial card distribution, card draw and dice. Nevertheless it was fun and we will try again.
I tested the game a lot and never had the card distribution was never bad enough to spoil the game . But, you're right, a combination of bad card distribution and unkind dice will happen once in a while.

Quote:
I am amazed and delighted by the high level of quality you are delivering game after game, contest after contest.
That is very kind of you to say so.

Quote:

Lastly, I wouldn't be me if I hadn't some comments and proposals to an already very polished game:

What I like:
+ the rules are precise, well written and I like the fact that you provide a full page of examples.
+ the flow of the game is nice and there is almost no downtime for the other player.
+ my wife likes the game, too.
All good news.

Quote:
What could be considered for a next revision:

A) I was wondering if it is necessary to actually "lock" dice between rolls. Wouldn't it allow for more flexibility if the restriction was just the number of rolls with a free choice of dice to re-roll each time?
Yes, I suppose there is no real need to lock the dice. In reality you will be trying to roll certain column numbers so you'll naturally set aside any favourable dice anyway.

Quote:

B) In the second game we had the situtation that my wife was down to one hand card and tried to place it in one final desperate roll. In that case she didn't have to care for the penalty, because she would either succeed after the third roll and place the final card or she wouldn't and have to discard the final card before taking the penalty. The final sentence in step 4. would take precedence over the final sentence in step 3. Is this correct?
'Placing a card' comes before 'Paying a penalty'. So, if she succeeds with her roll, then she places the last card, irrespective of any unmatched dice. If not, then she discards the last card (due to Paying a penalty which comes before 'Discarding cards').

Quote:

One last thing I thought about was the potential to have a bit more interaction between players. Currently, the mechanics are done in a way that each player plays his/her game. The only piece of interaction is the selection of columns I try to focus on based on what my opponent does.
I was wondering how the game would play if there would be just one stack of cards on each architrave and each card played would impact the strategy of the other player... a bad hand could suddenly provide new chances if the opponent plays a card on exactly the column number where I couldn't play on in the previous round. What do you think?
Dark.
That's interesting. But how would you keep track of who is winning a column if both players are playing to it?

Great feedback Dark - definitely food for thought for the next version. Thanks for playing!

 
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DarkPadawan wrote:
Since it was a bit tiresome to constantly look into the rules just to check what you can do with your dice, I put up a quick Game Aid.



Dark.


That's neat - great use of diagrams.

Note that Version 2 of the game has an additional rule for 4 matching dice for - moving the top card of the opponent's draw deck onto yours. (2 stacks of lines to represent the decks viewed from the side together with an arrow ought to do it!)

COLONNADE now has its own BGG page - so you should upload this to it.
 
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Downloaded rules. Will try tonight. All going well, I shall be able to give feedback based on playing the game in zero beer conditions and several beer conditions.

Thanks for sharing the game!
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Tim Edwards wrote:
Downloaded rules. Will try tonight. All going well, I shall be able to give feedback based on playing the game in zero beer conditions and several beer conditions.

Thanks for sharing the game!


Look forward to your feedback (with and/or without beer!)
 
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tucky60 wrote:
That's interesting. But how would you keep track of who is winning a column if both players are playing to it?


That's easy, just stack the cards like shown in the following sketch:


Dark.

PS: Revised, corrected and uploaded the Game Aid in the File section of the BGG page... gonna play with my wife now and test the variant.
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